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I'm always amazed by the lengths forgers go in order to successfully deceive their victims. Specially when only takes the same amount of work, or a little, to a

I'm always amazed by the lengths forgers go in order to successfully deceive their victims. Specially when only takes the same amount of work, or a little, to achieve uniqueness. Poor bastards, they don't know what they're missing.

kijin 14y ago
Actually, forgers don't need to do anything extraordinary to produce these fake cards. According to the article that OP links to at the beginning, they just push some buttons on the same machines that make genuine cards. > Very low serial numbers, like very low MAC ID addresses, are a hallmark of the "ghost shift", i.e. the shift that happens very late at night when a rouge worker enters the factory and runs the production machine off the books. Significantly, ghost shifts are often run using marginal material that would normally be disposed of but were intercepted on the way to the grinder. As a result, the markings and characteristics of the material often look absolutely authentic, because the ghost material is a product of the same line as genuine material.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  Actually, forgers don't need to do anything extraordinary to produce these fake cards. According to the article that OP links to at the beginning, they just push some buttons on the same machines that make genuine cards. The same thing occurs in counterfeit DVDs. The tell-tale sign is when the factory-identifying marks have been ground off from the clear middle plastic part of the DVD. I believe these are sometimes also called overruns, and it affects basically every industry out there, from electronics through to handbags.
DanBC 14y ago
This is something that I too find confusing. I don't get what the added value is of a handbag that costs $2,000. There's good quality materials, high quality assurance, restricted numbers, sales from expensive shops. But still, that's no where near $2,000. So a forger can make a knock off and try to sell it for $1,800; or for $200; or a bad similar bag and sell it for $50. I don't know why they don't make nice bags for $200. This is true when you look at wristwatches. I want a nice movement in a nice case with a nice face for a reasonable price. There's a lot of philosophy around it if you're interested in that kind of noodling. "Bob has a science-fiction machine that can make an exact copy of a famous artwork. No one will be able to tell the difference between the two pieces. Bob borrows a famous artwork, but he then gets the copy and original mixed up. Should he tell the museum? Or should he just return one? No-one will eve know, but Bob." etc.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  So a forger can make a knock off and try to sell it for $1,800; or for $200; or a bad similar bag and sell it for $50. I don't know why they don't make nice bags for $200. Interesting enough, this happens; there are high quality fakes as well as poor quality. I've sat down with the head of brand enforcement for a major fashion house, held the different fake items, and seen what can be made. There are different grades of counterfeit available, which basically boil down to three: the cheap and nasty; something nice (the $200 example); and something incredible. The latter is particularly interesting; sometimes a counterfeiter will understand the brand so well, the cuts, styles and use of materials that define them, and come up with entirely new ranges that have never and will never be made by the authentic manufacturer. I've had more than one brand manager tell me that in any other situation, the designer behind the items would be able to walk into a job with them due to their new designs being so good.
  - mmariani 14y ago
    I've had more than one brand manager tell me that in any other situation, the designer behind the items would be able to walk into a job with them due to their new designs being so good. Thank you for telling us your experience. That was exactly the point I was trying to get through. The market that buys cheap to reasonable copies would never be able to pay the premium price of the original merchandise, thus there's no loss there. However, the role of the high quality counterfeiter and the market that they aim for should be better understood in order to be economically explored. Though not by litigation, but by normal market channels. In the end, instead of paying lawyers to pursue the lost revenue, we could create new brands that would fit the expectations of these unharvested markets.
- jstanley 14y ago
  "I want a nice movement in a nice case with a nice face for a reasonable price." You might want to look at some higher-end Chinese watches. Some of the Parnis watches look very nice indeed.
  - meaty 14y ago

kijin 14y ago

Actually, forgers don't need to do anything extraordinary to produce these fake cards. According to the article that OP links to at the beginning, they just push some buttons on the same machines that make genuine cards. > Very low serial numbers, like very low MAC ID addresses, are a hallmark of the "ghost shift", i.e. the shift that happens very late at night when a rouge worker enters the factory and runs the production machine off the books. Significantly, ghost shifts are often run using marginal material that would normally be disposed of but were intercepted on the way to the grinder. As a result, the markings and characteristics of the material often look absolutely authentic, because the ghost material is a product of the same line as genuine material.

mootothemax 14y ago
Actually, forgers don't need to do anything extraordinary to produce these fake cards. According to the article that OP links to at the beginning, they just push some buttons on the same machines that make genuine cards. The same thing occurs in counterfeit DVDs. The tell-tale sign is when the factory-identifying marks have been ground off from the clear middle plastic part of the DVD. I believe these are sometimes also called overruns, and it affects basically every industry out there, from electronics through to handbags.

DanBC 14y ago

This is something that I too find confusing. I don't get what the added value is of a handbag that costs $2,000. There's good quality materials, high quality assurance, restricted numbers, sales from expensive shops. But still, that's no where near $2,000. So a forger can make a knock off and try to sell it for $1,800; or for $200; or a bad similar bag and sell it for $50. I don't know why they don't make nice bags for $200. This is true when you look at wristwatches. I want a nice movement in a nice case with a nice face for a reasonable price. There's a lot of philosophy around it if you're interested in that kind of noodling. "Bob has a science-fiction machine that can make an exact copy of a famous artwork. No one will be able to tell the difference between the two pieces. Bob borrows a famous artwork, but he then gets the copy and original mixed up. Should he tell the museum? Or should he just return one? No-one will eve know, but Bob." etc.

mootothemax 14y ago
So a forger can make a knock off and try to sell it for $1,800; or for $200; or a bad similar bag and sell it for $50. I don't know why they don't make nice bags for $200. Interesting enough, this happens; there are high quality fakes as well as poor quality. I've sat down with the head of brand enforcement for a major fashion house, held the different fake items, and seen what can be made. There are different grades of counterfeit available, which basically boil down to three: the cheap and nasty; something nice (the $200 example); and something incredible. The latter is particularly interesting; sometimes a counterfeiter will understand the brand so well, the cuts, styles and use of materials that define them, and come up with entirely new ranges that have never and will never be made by the authentic manufacturer. I've had more than one brand manager tell me that in any other situation, the designer behind the items would be able to walk into a job with them due to their new designs being so good.
- mmariani 14y ago
  I've had more than one brand manager tell me that in any other situation, the designer behind the items would be able to walk into a job with them due to their new designs being so good. Thank you for telling us your experience. That was exactly the point I was trying to get through. The market that buys cheap to reasonable copies would never be able to pay the premium price of the original merchandise, thus there's no loss there. However, the role of the high quality counterfeiter and the market that they aim for should be better understood in order to be economically explored. Though not by litigation, but by normal market channels. In the end, instead of paying lawyers to pursue the lost revenue, we could create new brands that would fit the expectations of these unharvested markets.
jstanley 14y ago
"I want a nice movement in a nice case with a nice face for a reasonable price." You might want to look at some higher-end Chinese watches. Some of the Parnis watches look very nice indeed.
- meaty 14y ago