16 ms·

An FBI Hostage Negotiator Buys A Car [audio]

373 points by kungfudoi 14y ago

pdknsk 14y ago
Slightly misleading, because there's only audio of him talking about it, but no audio of the actual conversation.
- Silhouette 14y ago
  He did get quite an impressive result, though, and there's some interesting (to me, at least) discussion of negotiating tactics that people who do this stuff for a living actually get taught.
  - joshfraser 14y ago
    Without knowing the invoice value of the car or what he paid, there's no way to know if he got a good deal. There's a good chance he still overpaid for that car. I worked at a car dealership for a summer. There were plenty of times when a customer would start off with a reasonable offer but we'd still negotiate back and forth multiple times. We did this not just to increase our profits but also because we wanted people to walk away feeling like they'd won. If the sales guy had accepted his first offer right away the customer would have walked away feeling screwed (which is bad for repeat business and referrals). My job was to make everyone walk away feeling like they'd out-negotiated me. In reality, no car would leave the lot unless the dealership was making money. This doesn't discount the value of the technique, just remember car salesmen also negotiate for a living.
    - michaelt 14y ago
      They said he tried other dealerships and couldn't get such a good deal, so presumably there wasn't much left in it for the dealership.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Worth noting here that "invoice" is a meaningless number too. "The dealers are provided with incentives by the manufacturers", which is another way of saying that the invoice prices are a fairy tale. Invoice is the new sticker. There's a pretty good EconTalk with Russ Roberts talking about the fine details with a dealership sales manager. You have to read between the lines (Roberts is not such a great interviewer that he gets a car salesman to torpedo their own best interests) but it's pretty illuminating. As in all things, it's mostly about the market. There are makes/models where sticker isn't even the real sticker; for instance, cars with waitlists are unlikely to get purchases under sticker. On the other hand, you can capture much of the dealer's incentive if you choose the right time of month to make an offer on a car the dealer would like to get off their lot.
- jeffdavis 14y ago
  That bothered me too. Any educational value this might have is in the subtle details, and they left all of those out: no audio/video, no numbers, and we don't know what both sides knew before the negotiation started. It's basically as educational as anyone at a cocktail party talking about the good deal they got on a car. Except in that case, you'd at least get the numbers.
nathannecro 14y ago
Fantastic Planet Money episode. However, it is about 17 minutes long which a whole bunch of political stuff which may be viewed as fluff. Approxcript of the negotiation techniques below: 1. "Nibbles": Reach a general agreement (agree on a basic premise). Instead of instantly accepting the deal, push for one small concession at a time. 2. Before entering into a discussion, think about a 'BATNA' = Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. Are there other options? Is there a minimum you are willing to agree with? 3. "Expanding the pie": While certain points in contention may be very inflexible (salary, job position), "expand the pie" and seek out other areas which may be more flexible (vacation days, compensation). This also serves to clarify the central hinge of the negotiations. 4. Disarming Empathy. Essentially, the act of being empathetic (in a sort of self-deprecating way perhaps?) so that the other side bargains against themselves while you do not budge from your initial offer.
- S4M 14y ago
  I was looking for this kind of summary, thanks for posting it, but after reading it I fail to see how "Nibbles" and "Expanding the pie" are not basically the same thing.
  - Radix_ 14y ago
    One is a "what" the other is a "how".
  - ajepst 14y ago
    Nibbles = get the other party to feel like this is a done deal, then push them for further small concessions. (nibbles are one-way) example: "gee, that job offer sounds great!! but there is one thing- just caught that I have to pay for parking. Can you do anything there to make up for that?" Expanding the pie = find a compromise that benefits both parties: "I understand you're extremely short on office space until the new office space is built out, and your office will be a painfully long commute for me until my lease runs out and I can move closer to the office. How about I work from home for a while?"
  - neilk 14y ago
    "Nibbles" are when you extend an agreement with further small concessions. Works best when the other side is under more pressure than you - they were happy to get to your yes, and the pain of losing your agreement is something they will avoid. "Expanding the pie" is more like changing the game. You have one thing you're negotiating on, and it's a zero-sum situation. One winner and one loser. But what if you bring other things into the negotiation, to turn that into a win-win situation? Then it's easier to find agreement.
barefoot 14y ago
If you enjoyed this podcast I can recommend the book "Getting to Yes": http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0395631246 http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0395631246 It's a little bit dated but an excellent introduction to negotiation and overlaps with a number of the topics discussed in the show.
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  Agreed. This book has made me more money than any other book without exception.
- crazysaem 14y ago
  http://www.amazon.com/dp/0395631246 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0395631246 (link to the desktop version)
- mattgrice 14y ago
  it is an excellent book but I am curious - in what way you think it is dated?
leak 14y ago
I don't have experience in a lot of negotiations but I have used similar methods many times. I bought a bike a couple days ago and got them to throw in a few extra things for free. I didn't negotiate the price of the bike but I made a point of needing a light and a helment. First, I asked for a light that would be go great with the bike and the sales person put one he had laying around on the bike. I said it looked great. Then I asked for a helment and found one for me that I liked. I put on the helment and did a test ride with the bike. I told him I'll take the bike. Then I asked, how much for the helment & light? He gave me the price. I said "That's not bad but honestly, I don't have the money for everything. What can you do?" He offered to give me 20% off the helment & light. I again said that was a great deal but couldn't do it. A few more back and forth and me throwing in that I would need another bike (for my gf) and wanted to come back and buy from him, he eventually threw in the light and helment. What I knew was roughly how much profit they were making from the bike. I knew roughly the mark up of accessories and I knew how they wanted to sell the bike. It worked out really well for me and the business. I love the bike and the business now has a new loyal customer.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  I bought a bike too last year. I paid list price, had them install kiddie seats, I paid list for those too. The last place I would drive a hard bargain would be in a bike store. For one, I can afford the bike + extras, otherwise I wouldn't go out to buy it, we're talking relatively small money here. I simply set a budget and didn't exceed the budget, which may have influenced my choice of bike but that's fine. When I went back a few weeks later with a small problem (crank play) the guy instantly dropped what he was doing, fixed the problem immediately (obviously no charge) and asked how my kids liked the bike. We talked for a bit more and he asked me to come in any time there is anything wrong with the bike right away. I love the bike and that guy running his small business. I wonder how he would have treated me if I had decided to haggle with him over the price of the seats or the bike using my negotiation skills. Relative to my income that guy is working a lot harder for a lot less. Maybe my perspective about bike store owners changed when I worked for a bike store when I was 15 (newspaper route + working in the bike store paid for my first computer). Car dealerships I approach in an entirely different way.
coryl 14y ago
The nibble technique reminds me of how clients drive freelance web developers insane.
- biesnecker 14y ago
  Which in turn reminds me that project managers working with freelancers are often far, far better at negotiation than are the freelancers.
  - sopooneo 14y ago
    To your point, early in my career I made way more money working through a middleman than I did freelancing directly for clients. It was also much less stressful.
    - biesnecker 14y ago
      Interesting. When I was doing more client work I wanted to do something like that, but was never able to suss out exactly how to find such a middleman. I was a lot younger and (I'd like to think) less savvy then, though.
      - scarecrowbob 14y ago
        I do most of my work through agencies in Austin, TX... It took about a year to build up a good hourly rate reliably... this was done mostly just by being fast, available, and good and always keeping an eye on the next project. At this point, I know several people who are able to make money off me, and that has always been my goal as a freelancer, more than anything. The agencies I freelance with all recognize that I'm as reliable as an employee but far cheaper as far as total cost, so they have a better margin on work they do with me. And even though I'm charging quite a bit, since they are charging a markup on my time... well, it's just a lot nicer for everyone. If I raise my rates, they make more money (within reason, of course).
  - at-fates-hands 14y ago
    This makes sense considering most PM's I know used to be in sales. Funny thing, after spending many years in sales before becoming a developer, I can see these techniques coming a mile away. Sometimes I employ "power negotiating" skills and have some fun just to stay sharp. Here are some of those techniques: http://www.negotiatingguide.com/negotiation/powerarticle.htm http://www.negotiatingguide.com/negotiation/powerarticle.htm
jacquesm 14y ago
FBI hostage negotiator is given the feeling he just made a good deal. Salesman pockets his commission, dealership sells a car and makes money. Everybody happy.
- shawn-butler 14y ago
  This is why I generally dislike salespeople, marketers, and lawyers (especially divorce lawyers). If anyone in a deal is walking away happy it means some other party is suffering whether they know it or not. Any equitable deal is one in which every party is just a little bit unhappy and accepts it for the greater good. What the aforementioned practitioners do is to convince someone that they are happy and the further they can push them away from reality the more advantage they take. Usually if not always a false scarcity of information is employed. Tim Ferriss is the worst kind of con artist in the regard.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Any equitable deal is one in which every party is just a little bit unhappy Then I don't want to live in an equitable world. Sounds like an equitable world means everyone is always just a little bit unhappy.
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      Only if they make deals all the time!
    - shawn-butler 14y ago
      Which is counterbalanced by the happiness found in collaborative aims achieved by negotiated, equitable unhappiness. Kind of the definition of work I suppose. Everyone wants to be happy; the extent to which we do so at the expense of others is pretty staggering in recent history.
      - sliverstorm 14y ago
        Oh yes, because before modern days we were so much more empathetic and loving of our fellow man. Fiefdoms are an excellent example of this...
lis 14y ago
Good examples for the discussed techniques. I am actually surprised though, that the car sales man didn't ask how much he could pay. If the FBI negotiator still stuck with his initial offer, I guess he would have suggested some kind of monthly rate or a similar kind of loan that would "fit his lifestyle better".
- Tloewald 14y ago
  The way we bought our last car was much simpler (not sure it was better, but i don't know if i could pull it off). We picked the car we wanted and then emailed every dealership within a hundred miles what we wanted and asked for quotes. Once we had quotes we liked we treated the tradein as a nibble. Best car buying experience ever.
  - joshfraser 14y ago
    Did you use CarWoo or did you do it manually? This is a smart approach because it's the only realistic way to comparison shop with dealers who are trained to slow you down and drag out the process before giving you a number.
    - Tloewald 14y ago
      Did it myself on the advice of a friend. It worked like a charm, no bullshit involved on either side. Funniest thing was we had gone to a local dealership to attempt a test drive and they wouldn't even talk to us. The guys who won our business then sourced the vehicle from that same dealership -- they drove it up to our house with the local dealer's plates on it, for something like $6k less than the dealer's sticker price. I left out one detail -- we ran our offer past the other dealers who had responded and none would match it.
thewisedude 14y ago
Information is Power==Money! One thing I always believe helps is having information about the thing that you want to buy. For eg:- If you know that the car that they are trying to sell has been sitting in the lot for more than 2 months, then you know they are desperate to get rid of it, so you can come up an appropriate(much lower) ask price! In all fairness, adding in the nibbles may annoy or piss of the person you are dealing with(in some cases). In a way, you are sort of pushing them into a corner. However, expanding the pie and looking out of your tunnel vision is a useful hint! Also, in the case of FBI negotiator, not everybody will let you sleep over their offer when they have matched your ask price without you giving them any wiggle-room.
pan69 14y ago
the "nibble" reminds me of scope creep. :)
rguldener 14y ago
If you haven't read it yet I can really recommend the book "Getting more" by Stuart Diamond. He covers all of the techniques mentioned in this talk and much more, with hundreds of brief examples from the everyday life's of his students and himself. It takes training and time to apply these principles (at least for me) but it has transformed how I think about everyday negotiations. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-More-Negotiate-Achieve-Goals/dp/0307716899 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-More-Negotiate-Achieve-Goals/d...
zaidf 14y ago
My dad does something similar every few years when purchasing a family car. This is what he does: 1. Decides ahead of time what exactly he wants and how much he wants to pay(via internet, friends etc.) 2. Calls up area dealerships that have the exact model/make 3. Asks them to skip the pitch. No, he is not visiting the dealership. Yes, he is damn serious about purchasing this car. 4. Tells them to write down his number, which is the price he is willing to pay. 5. Requests them to call when they can sell him for that number. Promises to buy it if they do so. How it works out: Typically he will get multiple calls back trying to get him to reset his price. He stays firm and politely informs them he is serious about that price and that he is ready to purchase. That part is very important because dealerships get a fair share of timewasters. He usually ends up with a dealership that can chalk up his sale as an easy one even if the margins were low/non-existent. I'll emphasize that my dad, like the negotiator in the story, will not budge. This is harder than it seems but the key for him is to keep the conversations short and set a no-bullshit attitude up front. He has had instances when the dealership will lure him in and then try to do a switcharoo. He will laugh or express disappointment depending on the day but in either case, he will walk out. That said, he is a reasonable party. If it is $100 more, he will likely accept it--but even then, only as a final compromise. If it is $1,000 more than his price, he will almost certainly walk away. Another key point is that my dad does his homework in figuring about the lowest he feels a dealership can go while still having interest in selling it to him. Also, his being a doctor may help him in being taken serious, though it also makes the salesman more aggressive in trying to get additional $ out of him.
- Tichy 14y ago
  How can he promise to buy if he contacts several dealers? He would only buy from the first one, I suppose.
  - zaidf 14y ago
    Sure, I think there is an understanding the first dealer to give him the price will get his business.
  - anthonyb 14y ago
zerovox 14y ago
Very interesting. Being from the UK, I've never listened to NPR before (aside from the Tiny Desk series), can anyone recommend some good weekly shows worth listening to?
- rhplus 14y ago
  For business and economics, go for Marketplace (daily), Freakonomics Radio and Planet Money. For pop-science and tech, maybe Radio Lab and Science Friday. Other popular shows are This American Life, All Things Considered, On The Media, Splendid Table, etc, etc. Directory: http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_directory.php?type=topic&id=-1 http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_directory.php?type=to... Various show pages: http://www.freakonomics.com/radio/ http://www.freakonomics.com/radio/ http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ http://www.marketplace.org/ http://www.marketplace.org/ http://pri.org/ http://pri.org/
  - zerovox 14y ago
    Thanks for the suggestions, I've subscribed to Freakonomics and Radiolab.
- objclxt 14y ago
  Depends what you're after. Some of the programming is quite similar to Radio 4 - the daily 'Morning Edition' is basically 'Today', 'All Things Considered' is 'PM', and then there's 'Marketplace' (no prizes for guessing what that's about!). Outside the daily news shows you've got: * Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me, basically the US equivalent of Radio 4's News Quiz * Tech Nation, the title of which should be fairly self explanatory * Car Talk, a call-in show about cars. I am not a car person, and I enjoy it (the show stopped production a few months ago, but should be widely available online) * This American Life, does eclectic long-form journalism. * Science Friday, which is part of a daily call-in series Talk of the Nation, but all about science. If you're into science and tech, Radiolab (radiolab.org) is also well worth a listen, it's not technically NPR (there are several different public radio groups in the US), but it uses really innovative production and I wish Radio 4 would broadcast it here in the UK! Hopefully other people can add their own favorite shows...there are quite a few of them, and I've just highlighted a few that I find interesting as a Brit. I'm in the US a fair bit, and tend to listen to public radio where I can so these are all shows I've just stumbled across and enjoyed.
antihero 14y ago
But then, when met with disarming empathy, what do you do if you have no backup? Walk-away?
- jacquesm 14y ago
  Sure. Your batna of last resort is 'no deal'.
runjake 14y ago
This is hastily-written, sorry Step 1: Decide what car(s) you want to buy, down to the color, trim, options, etc. Type it all out in concise list form. Step 2: Visit Edmunds.com, etc and get a general idea of local fees, taxes, and costs. Step 3: Find the dealer websites within 120 miles or so, and write down their "Internet Sales" and "Fleet Sales Manager" email addresses. Step 4: Compose an email to each of the email addresses you wrote down. Say that you are sending this out to several dealers within 120 miles and you will be selecting the lowest cost for the following list (which you created in step 1). Ask them to give you their "walk out the door" price. This price will include all fees, taxes, costs, etc. Step 5: Wait. Maybe 30% of them won't reply, but that's OK. Step 6: Take the lowest quote and tack it to the wall. Send another email to the next 2 or 3 lowest quotes saying that the guy tacked to the wall is quoting you $true_value (don't lie). See if they come down in price. Step 7: Pick the one. This has worked 3 times for buying a new car. No haggling or even stepping into the car lot until negotiations are done. You don't necessarily have to take the lowest quote (it's nice to pay a little more for a dealer closer to home) but it sure does drive the price down.
- buzzkillr2 14y ago
  I have seen this method suggested in car dealer AMA threads. None of the sales guy (dealers) said this is a good idea and the effectiveness seemed largely dependent upon location.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > None of the sales guy (dealers) said this is a good idea I think that's their idea of a hint.
  - crntaylor 14y ago
    I think that anything a dealer says about buying cars to non-dealers should be looked at with a fair amount of scepticism.
  - LaGrange 14y ago
    While looking for a flat in Amsterdam one of the agents I got was working for a salary, not commission. She was one exception who told me to talk to as many agents as possible, and not take whatever they tell me to. And yes, the "talk to only one, maximum two agents" was called an old boring story, because sure, they do talk to each other, but they will not treat you worse for it. She helped me in my looking immensely, and while she didn't make the sale, she's also the first one recommended by my company for new imported employees (which we get a lot of), so somehow I doubt her company lost a lot that way. In fact, I praised her more than the agent I got my flat through, and it's her who gets my recommendation whenever someone asks me.
knitting 14y ago
For the last method, it is difficult to find the line between finding the best deal vs. offending the seller so they move on to another buyer.
brainsqueezer 14y ago
All those guys teach negotiation at university but never attended that class in my CS degree. Any book or online class recommendation?
smugengineer69 14y ago
Nerd moment. This reminds me of the part in The Hobbit (the book, not the movie) where Gandalf takes the dwarves to meet Beorn, the skin-changer. Before entering his house, Gandalf warns the dwarves that Beorn is tempermental, and that in order to get him to help them, they should stagger their entrances. Gandalf initially only enters with Bilbo, but as he tells Beorn about the adventures they have had so far, he repeatedly references an increasingly large number of dwarves. e.g. "You have mentioned a dozen, yet there are only ten dwarves here!", to which Gandalf replies by having two more dwarves enter. In the end, master businessman Gandalf gets Beorn to house all 16 in their party, by means of exactly this "nibbles"-like negotiation strategy. I really do think Gandalf has a lot to offer the business community as an astute and personable negotiator.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  I really do think Gandalf has a lot to offer the business community as an astute and personable negotiator. "Wait, no, I have a better idea, how about this. You sell me the gray Prius for 2.5% under factory invoice with the 2% APR financing we talked about earlier, or I summon the great worm Catyrpelius from his resting place in the Abyss to digest your entrails over a thousand years. What? Sure, I'll wait here while you run it by the sales manager."
  - smugengineer69 14y ago
    I was envisioning exactly this scenario.
  - rhokstar 14y ago
    I'm imagining this whole scenario in his voice. Golden.
russell 14y ago
I let my girlfriend do it. The last time I bought a car, I decided what I wanted and shopped around the local dealers and got a good offer at $18,000. I told my girlfriend about the deal, and she said, "Way too expensive." She gets on the web and looks at all the dealer in Northern CA, and finds one of those lo-ball one-only offers in San Francisco. She calls the dealer and gets him to hold the car for her, since we would have to drive 240 miles to get there. Then she starts calling local dealers to find one that would match the offer. The nearest one wouldnt, but one an hour away would. She got me the car for $14,000. A few years earlier we bought a house and needed a new refrigerator and dishwasher. We go to Sears and find what we want. She then proceeds to negotiate several hundred dollars of the sticker price. I didnt even know you could bargain with Sears. The downside is that I cant make a simple purchase any longer. She makes me go for the best deal.
- Centigonal 14y ago
  Your girlfriend is a boss. Does her she work in a field where you especially need negotiation skills?
  - russell 14y ago
    She's a mathematician and used to teach at Ohio State. A decade ago she switched to being an oil painter and a photographer. She's now teaching herself web development, because she thinks we could use a second income in this turbulent economy. On top of all that she is a very nice person. I consider myself to be a very fortunate guy.
    - hnriot 14y ago
      Why not use her negotiation skills to turn her photography hobby into a money making venture?
      - russell 14y ago
        She's building a web site to showcase both her web development skills and her photography. I'm not sure whether she is going to look for a job or go for freelancing, but I think her inclination is to go for the latter. Her photography is much more art than commercial. She will probably pursue that as well.
yozmsn 14y ago
The title made me think he was negotiating with a salesman who had took his co-workers hostage or something...
Benferhat 14y ago
Any opinions on carsdirect.com?
cynwoody 14y ago
FWIW, the FBI agent's favorite car color, salsa red pearl, offered by Toyota: http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p80/02limited/Picture002.jpg http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p80/02limited/Picture002....
ljoshua 14y ago
For those who have purchased a house before (I may be about to start the process) do the same techniques apply, or is it a different ballgame?
- jacquesm 14y ago
  The market is in your favour right now, but in houses 'location, location, location' still holds true. It also very much depends on where you're buying. The main principles of negotiation (take your time, set yourself a price and if you can't get it for that price walk) apply. But there may be a scarcity of offerings that suit you, a place may have extra perks (location near water / the beach) and so on. The most important facts about buying a house are how long it has been on the market and what it was bought for. If you can't figure out the latter you may be able to make stab at it by comparing the market development relative to when the house changed hands last and what was done to improve it since. Happy house hunting!
- pc86 14y ago
  I purchased my home in an oldish (early 1920's) area a little more than a year ago. We knew exactly what we wanted and that helped tremendously: * Price we were willing to pay "out the door" (a hard, absolute max that wouldn't leave us in dire straits if one of us lost our job) * How much work we were willing to do after the sale * Tied in with the above, a minimum 1-year, preferably 2-year warranty on major repairs paid for by the seller * Within a 30 minute rush-hour commute to the furthest employer * 30-year mortgage that we can afford to pay off in 15 years * Any school district except the worst few in the area (no kids yet, but this is our first home and we'll have it 5-10 years; when we move kids will be just entering the equation and we need to plan that we may not be willing or able to move) As with any negotiation, the most important thing is knowing exactly what you need, what you want, and what you can (and will) spend. The hardest part (for me anyway) is getting a deal that is everything I need, most of what I want but is 2% more expensive than my max and still being willing to walk away.
- vidarh 14y ago
  Yes. I bought my house when the UK market was still booming, and sellers were used to houses going substantially over the advertised price. Instead we negotiated 10% off the advertised price, and I don't think we did particularly well even though the estate agent we dealt with seemed rather shocked to get an offer that low. In terms of picking the area, we did well - current value has increased at least 10% more than the average for London in the time since we bought. We could likely have started lower, and we messed it up by using some repairs that needed to be done (that were clearly priced into the advertised price) as an argument for dropping the price when we ought to have been able to get that price drop and make the offer contingent on the seller having some of the repairs done on their dime. The key thing is to be able to move quickly. They picked us because the alternative would have been to wait for other offers, while we turned around and started negotiating as soon as we were sure, offer an agreement in principle subject to a survey right off the bat if they could meet our price, had an agreement in principle from my bank, and had been renting so we stressed that we could move on everything immediately. If you can stress to the sellers estate agent in particular that you can move quickly, keep in mind that it will be in their interest to get a quick, trouble free sale vs. hanging on for weeks for 10% more commission, and that will influence how they deal with their client (conversely, it is in your interest whether selling or buying to be very wary when an estate agent pushes you to accept an offer - there's been some survey where it turned out estate agents typically hold out longer and sell for more when selling their own houses than their clients do).
hippich 14y ago
Bought from a guy on craigslist '00 Chrysler Concorde 3.2L for $2000 back in 2009 when we just moved into USA and desperately needed any car. Still drives. This car has really nice leather interior, huge trunk and actually is quite reliable. But because it is "domestic junk", price was very low. I am going to drive until it dies. And once it die, I will buy another "domestic junk" car and will be driving it for next few years :))
gregpilling 14y ago
I negotiated my last truck purchase by text message. I drove the salesman nuts by not responding quickly. I was at a happy hour in a pub, so I would only respond once per beverage. I got the price I wanted with no hassle. I avoided going to the dealer, they delivered. I avoided the dreaded Finance and Insurance guy that always tries to upsell, and I got them to buy the interest rate down too. The best part was the lack of stress for me.
SparrowOS 14y ago
God is just. If you marry someone out of your league, you will forever be dominated. If you get a job or school out of your league, you will regret it. Both these show God's justice. I have a feeling something bad happens if you get a good deal on a car, but I don't know what. On the otherhand, work is rewarded and if you put effort into purchases, it is rewarded. God says... 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 25:13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. ---- Key thing from that passage was self service for kings. Also, God punishes with desolation.
pseut 14y ago
The last time I bought a new car, I used AAA's prenegotiated purchasing service: http://www.aaa.com/AAA_Travel/NewCar/buying_car.htm http://www.aaa.com/AAA_Travel/NewCar/buying_car.htm (this was in california; it doesn't seem to be available everywhere). So I don't have a cool story or any tips, but it was about the least stressful purchase I've ever made and was done pretty quickly.
drwl 14y ago
if you're really interested in negotiations, i recommend beyond reason by roger fisher and daniel shapiro
drucken 14y ago
Techniques explained in NPR episode: 1. The "Nibble" - ask a little more into the offer, especially if not directly related. 2. "Best Alternative To A Negotiated Agreement (BATNA)" - ensure there is a viable alternative, preferably before negotiation. 3. "Expanding the Pie" - offer can be often improved or agreed on parts of an item or service rather than assuming it applies only to the whole. 4. "Bracketing" [my term] - offer low to point of anger but not withdrawal, then praise counteroffer and negotiated item/service while claiming cannot afford counteroffer. 5. "Defer Immediate Agreement" [my term] - on best offer, defer immediate agreement with any reason so can gain time to check the offer or for other offers.

373 points by kungfudoi 14y ago

pdknsk 14y ago

Slightly misleading, because there's only audio of him talking about it, but no audio of the actual conversation.

Silhouette 14y ago
He did get quite an impressive result, though, and there's some interesting (to me, at least) discussion of negotiating tactics that people who do this stuff for a living actually get taught.
- joshfraser 14y ago
  Without knowing the invoice value of the car or what he paid, there's no way to know if he got a good deal. There's a good chance he still overpaid for that car. I worked at a car dealership for a summer. There were plenty of times when a customer would start off with a reasonable offer but we'd still negotiate back and forth multiple times. We did this not just to increase our profits but also because we wanted people to walk away feeling like they'd won. If the sales guy had accepted his first offer right away the customer would have walked away feeling screwed (which is bad for repeat business and referrals). My job was to make everyone walk away feeling like they'd out-negotiated me. In reality, no car would leave the lot unless the dealership was making money. This doesn't discount the value of the technique, just remember car salesmen also negotiate for a living.
  - michaelt 14y ago
    They said he tried other dealerships and couldn't get such a good deal, so presumably there wasn't much left in it for the dealership.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Worth noting here that "invoice" is a meaningless number too. "The dealers are provided with incentives by the manufacturers", which is another way of saying that the invoice prices are a fairy tale. Invoice is the new sticker. There's a pretty good EconTalk with Russ Roberts talking about the fine details with a dealership sales manager. You have to read between the lines (Roberts is not such a great interviewer that he gets a car salesman to torpedo their own best interests) but it's pretty illuminating. As in all things, it's mostly about the market. There are makes/models where sticker isn't even the real sticker; for instance, cars with waitlists are unlikely to get purchases under sticker. On the other hand, you can capture much of the dealer's incentive if you choose the right time of month to make an offer on a car the dealer would like to get off their lot.
jeffdavis 14y ago
That bothered me too. Any educational value this might have is in the subtle details, and they left all of those out: no audio/video, no numbers, and we don't know what both sides knew before the negotiation started. It's basically as educational as anyone at a cocktail party talking about the good deal they got on a car. Except in that case, you'd at least get the numbers.

nathannecro 14y ago

Fantastic Planet Money episode. However, it is about 17 minutes long which a whole bunch of political stuff which may be viewed as fluff. Approxcript of the negotiation techniques below: 1. "Nibbles": Reach a general agreement (agree on a basic premise). Instead of instantly accepting the deal, push for one small concession at a time. 2. Before entering into a discussion, think about a 'BATNA' = Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. Are there other options? Is there a minimum you are willing to agree with? 3. "Expanding the pie": While certain points in contention may be very inflexible (salary, job position), "expand the pie" and seek out other areas which may be more flexible (vacation days, compensation). This also serves to clarify the central hinge of the negotiations. 4. Disarming Empathy. Essentially, the act of being empathetic (in a sort of self-deprecating way perhaps?) so that the other side bargains against themselves while you do not budge from your initial offer.

S4M 14y ago
I was looking for this kind of summary, thanks for posting it, but after reading it I fail to see how "Nibbles" and "Expanding the pie" are not basically the same thing.
- Radix_ 14y ago
  One is a "what" the other is a "how".
- ajepst 14y ago
  Nibbles = get the other party to feel like this is a done deal, then push them for further small concessions. (nibbles are one-way) example: "gee, that job offer sounds great!! but there is one thing- just caught that I have to pay for parking. Can you do anything there to make up for that?" Expanding the pie = find a compromise that benefits both parties: "I understand you're extremely short on office space until the new office space is built out, and your office will be a painfully long commute for me until my lease runs out and I can move closer to the office. How about I work from home for a while?"
- neilk 14y ago
  "Nibbles" are when you extend an agreement with further small concessions. Works best when the other side is under more pressure than you - they were happy to get to your yes, and the pain of losing your agreement is something they will avoid. "Expanding the pie" is more like changing the game. You have one thing you're negotiating on, and it's a zero-sum situation. One winner and one loser. But what if you bring other things into the negotiation, to turn that into a win-win situation? Then it's easier to find agreement.

barefoot 14y ago

If you enjoyed this podcast I can recommend the book "Getting to Yes": http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0395631246 http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0395631246 It's a little bit dated but an excellent introduction to negotiation and overlaps with a number of the topics discussed in the show.

wtvanhest 14y ago
Agreed. This book has made me more money than any other book without exception.
crazysaem 14y ago
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0395631246 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0395631246 (link to the desktop version)
mattgrice 14y ago
it is an excellent book but I am curious - in what way you think it is dated?

leak 14y ago

I don't have experience in a lot of negotiations but I have used similar methods many times. I bought a bike a couple days ago and got them to throw in a few extra things for free. I didn't negotiate the price of the bike but I made a point of needing a light and a helment. First, I asked for a light that would be go great with the bike and the sales person put one he had laying around on the bike. I said it looked great. Then I asked for a helment and found one for me that I liked. I put on the helment and did a test ride with the bike. I told him I'll take the bike. Then I asked, how much for the helment & light? He gave me the price. I said "That's not bad but honestly, I don't have the money for everything. What can you do?" He offered to give me 20% off the helment & light. I again said that was a great deal but couldn't do it. A few more back and forth and me throwing in that I would need another bike (for my gf) and wanted to come back and buy from him, he eventually threw in the light and helment. What I knew was roughly how much profit they were making from the bike. I knew roughly the mark up of accessories and I knew how they wanted to sell the bike. It worked out really well for me and the business. I love the bike and the business now has a new loyal customer.

jacquesm 14y ago
I bought a bike too last year. I paid list price, had them install kiddie seats, I paid list for those too. The last place I would drive a hard bargain would be in a bike store. For one, I can afford the bike + extras, otherwise I wouldn't go out to buy it, we're talking relatively small money here. I simply set a budget and didn't exceed the budget, which may have influenced my choice of bike but that's fine. When I went back a few weeks later with a small problem (crank play) the guy instantly dropped what he was doing, fixed the problem immediately (obviously no charge) and asked how my kids liked the bike. We talked for a bit more and he asked me to come in any time there is anything wrong with the bike right away. I love the bike and that guy running his small business. I wonder how he would have treated me if I had decided to haggle with him over the price of the seats or the bike using my negotiation skills. Relative to my income that guy is working a lot harder for a lot less. Maybe my perspective about bike store owners changed when I worked for a bike store when I was 15 (newspaper route + working in the bike store paid for my first computer). Car dealerships I approach in an entirely different way.

coryl 14y ago

The nibble technique reminds me of how clients drive freelance web developers insane.

biesnecker 14y ago
Which in turn reminds me that project managers working with freelancers are often far, far better at negotiation than are the freelancers.
- sopooneo 14y ago
  To your point, early in my career I made way more money working through a middleman than I did freelancing directly for clients. It was also much less stressful.
  - biesnecker 14y ago
    Interesting. When I was doing more client work I wanted to do something like that, but was never able to suss out exactly how to find such a middleman. I was a lot younger and (I'd like to think) less savvy then, though.
    - scarecrowbob 14y ago
      I do most of my work through agencies in Austin, TX... It took about a year to build up a good hourly rate reliably... this was done mostly just by being fast, available, and good and always keeping an eye on the next project. At this point, I know several people who are able to make money off me, and that has always been my goal as a freelancer, more than anything. The agencies I freelance with all recognize that I'm as reliable as an employee but far cheaper as far as total cost, so they have a better margin on work they do with me. And even though I'm charging quite a bit, since they are charging a markup on my time... well, it's just a lot nicer for everyone. If I raise my rates, they make more money (within reason, of course).
- at-fates-hands 14y ago
  This makes sense considering most PM's I know used to be in sales. Funny thing, after spending many years in sales before becoming a developer, I can see these techniques coming a mile away. Sometimes I employ "power negotiating" skills and have some fun just to stay sharp. Here are some of those techniques: http://www.negotiatingguide.com/negotiation/powerarticle.htm http://www.negotiatingguide.com/negotiation/powerarticle.htm

jacquesm 14y ago

FBI hostage negotiator is given the feeling he just made a good deal. Salesman pockets his commission, dealership sells a car and makes money. Everybody happy.

shawn-butler 14y ago
This is why I generally dislike salespeople, marketers, and lawyers (especially divorce lawyers). If anyone in a deal is walking away happy it means some other party is suffering whether they know it or not. Any equitable deal is one in which every party is just a little bit unhappy and accepts it for the greater good. What the aforementioned practitioners do is to convince someone that they are happy and the further they can push them away from reality the more advantage they take. Usually if not always a false scarcity of information is employed. Tim Ferriss is the worst kind of con artist in the regard.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Any equitable deal is one in which every party is just a little bit unhappy Then I don't want to live in an equitable world. Sounds like an equitable world means everyone is always just a little bit unhappy.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    Only if they make deals all the time!
  - shawn-butler 14y ago
    Which is counterbalanced by the happiness found in collaborative aims achieved by negotiated, equitable unhappiness. Kind of the definition of work I suppose. Everyone wants to be happy; the extent to which we do so at the expense of others is pretty staggering in recent history.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      Oh yes, because before modern days we were so much more empathetic and loving of our fellow man. Fiefdoms are an excellent example of this...

lis 14y ago

Good examples for the discussed techniques. I am actually surprised though, that the car sales man didn't ask how much he could pay. If the FBI negotiator still stuck with his initial offer, I guess he would have suggested some kind of monthly rate or a similar kind of loan that would "fit his lifestyle better".

Tloewald 14y ago
The way we bought our last car was much simpler (not sure it was better, but i don't know if i could pull it off). We picked the car we wanted and then emailed every dealership within a hundred miles what we wanted and asked for quotes. Once we had quotes we liked we treated the tradein as a nibble. Best car buying experience ever.
- joshfraser 14y ago
  Did you use CarWoo or did you do it manually? This is a smart approach because it's the only realistic way to comparison shop with dealers who are trained to slow you down and drag out the process before giving you a number.
  - Tloewald 14y ago
    Did it myself on the advice of a friend. It worked like a charm, no bullshit involved on either side. Funniest thing was we had gone to a local dealership to attempt a test drive and they wouldn't even talk to us. The guys who won our business then sourced the vehicle from that same dealership -- they drove it up to our house with the local dealer's plates on it, for something like $6k less than the dealer's sticker price. I left out one detail -- we ran our offer past the other dealers who had responded and none would match it.

thewisedude 14y ago

Information is Power==Money! One thing I always believe helps is having information about the thing that you want to buy. For eg:- If you know that the car that they are trying to sell has been sitting in the lot for more than 2 months, then you know they are desperate to get rid of it, so you can come up an appropriate(much lower) ask price! In all fairness, adding in the nibbles may annoy or piss of the person you are dealing with(in some cases). In a way, you are sort of pushing them into a corner. However, expanding the pie and looking out of your tunnel vision is a useful hint! Also, in the case of FBI negotiator, not everybody will let you sleep over their offer when they have matched your ask price without you giving them any wiggle-room.

pan69 14y ago

the "nibble" reminds me of scope creep. :)

rguldener 14y ago

If you haven't read it yet I can really recommend the book "Getting more" by Stuart Diamond. He covers all of the techniques mentioned in this talk and much more, with hundreds of brief examples from the everyday life's of his students and himself. It takes training and time to apply these principles (at least for me) but it has transformed how I think about everyday negotiations. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Getting-More-Negotiate-Achieve-Goals/dp/0307716899 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-More-Negotiate-Achieve-Goals/d...

zaidf 14y ago

My dad does something similar every few years when purchasing a family car. This is what he does: 1. Decides ahead of time what exactly he wants and how much he wants to pay(via internet, friends etc.) 2. Calls up area dealerships that have the exact model/make 3. Asks them to skip the pitch. No, he is not visiting the dealership. Yes, he is damn serious about purchasing this car. 4. Tells them to write down his number, which is the price he is willing to pay. 5. Requests them to call when they can sell him for that number. Promises to buy it if they do so. How it works out: Typically he will get multiple calls back trying to get him to reset his price. He stays firm and politely informs them he is serious about that price and that he is ready to purchase. That part is very important because dealerships get a fair share of timewasters. He usually ends up with a dealership that can chalk up his sale as an easy one even if the margins were low/non-existent. I'll emphasize that my dad, like the negotiator in the story, will not budge. This is harder than it seems but the key for him is to keep the conversations short and set a no-bullshit attitude up front. He has had instances when the dealership will lure him in and then try to do a switcharoo. He will laugh or express disappointment depending on the day but in either case, he will walk out. That said, he is a reasonable party. If it is $100 more, he will likely accept it--but even then, only as a final compromise. If it is $1,000 more than his price, he will almost certainly walk away. Another key point is that my dad does his homework in figuring about the lowest he feels a dealership can go while still having interest in selling it to him. Also, his being a doctor may help him in being taken serious, though it also makes the salesman more aggressive in trying to get additional $ out of him.

Tichy 14y ago
How can he promise to buy if he contacts several dealers? He would only buy from the first one, I suppose.
- zaidf 14y ago
  Sure, I think there is an understanding the first dealer to give him the price will get his business.
- anthonyb 14y ago

zerovox 14y ago

Very interesting. Being from the UK, I've never listened to NPR before (aside from the Tiny Desk series), can anyone recommend some good weekly shows worth listening to?

rhplus 14y ago
For business and economics, go for Marketplace (daily), Freakonomics Radio and Planet Money. For pop-science and tech, maybe Radio Lab and Science Friday. Other popular shows are This American Life, All Things Considered, On The Media, Splendid Table, etc, etc. Directory: http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_directory.php?type=topic&id=-1 http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_directory.php?type=to... Various show pages: http://www.freakonomics.com/radio/ http://www.freakonomics.com/radio/ http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ http://www.thisamericanlife.org/ http://www.marketplace.org/ http://www.marketplace.org/ http://pri.org/ http://pri.org/
- zerovox 14y ago
  Thanks for the suggestions, I've subscribed to Freakonomics and Radiolab.
objclxt 14y ago
Depends what you're after. Some of the programming is quite similar to Radio 4 - the daily 'Morning Edition' is basically 'Today', 'All Things Considered' is 'PM', and then there's 'Marketplace' (no prizes for guessing what that's about!). Outside the daily news shows you've got: * Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me, basically the US equivalent of Radio 4's News Quiz * Tech Nation, the title of which should be fairly self explanatory * Car Talk, a call-in show about cars. I am not a car person, and I enjoy it (the show stopped production a few months ago, but should be widely available online) * This American Life, does eclectic long-form journalism. * Science Friday, which is part of a daily call-in series Talk of the Nation, but all about science. If you're into science and tech, Radiolab (radiolab.org) is also well worth a listen, it's not technically NPR (there are several different public radio groups in the US), but it uses really innovative production and I wish Radio 4 would broadcast it here in the UK! Hopefully other people can add their own favorite shows...there are quite a few of them, and I've just highlighted a few that I find interesting as a Brit. I'm in the US a fair bit, and tend to listen to public radio where I can so these are all shows I've just stumbled across and enjoyed.

antihero 14y ago

But then, when met with disarming empathy, what do you do if you have no backup? Walk-away?

jacquesm 14y ago
Sure. Your batna of last resort is 'no deal'.

runjake 14y ago

This is hastily-written, sorry Step 1: Decide what car(s) you want to buy, down to the color, trim, options, etc. Type it all out in concise list form. Step 2: Visit Edmunds.com, etc and get a general idea of local fees, taxes, and costs. Step 3: Find the dealer websites within 120 miles or so, and write down their "Internet Sales" and "Fleet Sales Manager" email addresses. Step 4: Compose an email to each of the email addresses you wrote down. Say that you are sending this out to several dealers within 120 miles and you will be selecting the lowest cost for the following list (which you created in step 1). Ask them to give you their "walk out the door" price. This price will include all fees, taxes, costs, etc. Step 5: Wait. Maybe 30% of them won't reply, but that's OK. Step 6: Take the lowest quote and tack it to the wall. Send another email to the next 2 or 3 lowest quotes saying that the guy tacked to the wall is quoting you $true_value (don't lie). See if they come down in price. Step 7: Pick the one. This has worked 3 times for buying a new car. No haggling or even stepping into the car lot until negotiations are done. You don't necessarily have to take the lowest quote (it's nice to pay a little more for a dealer closer to home) but it sure does drive the price down.

buzzkillr2 14y ago
I have seen this method suggested in car dealer AMA threads. None of the sales guy (dealers) said this is a good idea and the effectiveness seemed largely dependent upon location.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > None of the sales guy (dealers) said this is a good idea I think that's their idea of a hint.
- crntaylor 14y ago
  I think that anything a dealer says about buying cars to non-dealers should be looked at with a fair amount of scepticism.
- LaGrange 14y ago
  While looking for a flat in Amsterdam one of the agents I got was working for a salary, not commission. She was one exception who told me to talk to as many agents as possible, and not take whatever they tell me to. And yes, the "talk to only one, maximum two agents" was called an old boring story, because sure, they do talk to each other, but they will not treat you worse for it. She helped me in my looking immensely, and while she didn't make the sale, she's also the first one recommended by my company for new imported employees (which we get a lot of), so somehow I doubt her company lost a lot that way. In fact, I praised her more than the agent I got my flat through, and it's her who gets my recommendation whenever someone asks me.

knitting 14y ago

For the last method, it is difficult to find the line between finding the best deal vs. offending the seller so they move on to another buyer.

brainsqueezer 14y ago

All those guys teach negotiation at university but never attended that class in my CS degree. Any book or online class recommendation?

smugengineer69 14y ago

Nerd moment. This reminds me of the part in The Hobbit (the book, not the movie) where Gandalf takes the dwarves to meet Beorn, the skin-changer. Before entering his house, Gandalf warns the dwarves that Beorn is tempermental, and that in order to get him to help them, they should stagger their entrances. Gandalf initially only enters with Bilbo, but as he tells Beorn about the adventures they have had so far, he repeatedly references an increasingly large number of dwarves. e.g. "You have mentioned a dozen, yet there are only ten dwarves here!", to which Gandalf replies by having two more dwarves enter. In the end, master businessman Gandalf gets Beorn to house all 16 in their party, by means of exactly this "nibbles"-like negotiation strategy. I really do think Gandalf has a lot to offer the business community as an astute and personable negotiator.

CamperBob2 14y ago
I really do think Gandalf has a lot to offer the business community as an astute and personable negotiator. "Wait, no, I have a better idea, how about this. You sell me the gray Prius for 2.5% under factory invoice with the 2% APR financing we talked about earlier, or I summon the great worm Catyrpelius from his resting place in the Abyss to digest your entrails over a thousand years. What? Sure, I'll wait here while you run it by the sales manager."
- smugengineer69 14y ago
  I was envisioning exactly this scenario.
- rhokstar 14y ago
  I'm imagining this whole scenario in his voice. Golden.

russell 14y ago

I let my girlfriend do it. The last time I bought a car, I decided what I wanted and shopped around the local dealers and got a good offer at $18,000. I told my girlfriend about the deal, and she said, "Way too expensive." She gets on the web and looks at all the dealer in Northern CA, and finds one of those lo-ball one-only offers in San Francisco. She calls the dealer and gets him to hold the car for her, since we would have to drive 240 miles to get there. Then she starts calling local dealers to find one that would match the offer. The nearest one wouldnt, but one an hour away would. She got me the car for $14,000. A few years earlier we bought a house and needed a new refrigerator and dishwasher. We go to Sears and find what we want. She then proceeds to negotiate several hundred dollars of the sticker price. I didnt even know you could bargain with Sears. The downside is that I cant make a simple purchase any longer. She makes me go for the best deal.

Centigonal 14y ago
Your girlfriend is a boss. Does her she work in a field where you especially need negotiation skills?
- russell 14y ago
  She's a mathematician and used to teach at Ohio State. A decade ago she switched to being an oil painter and a photographer. She's now teaching herself web development, because she thinks we could use a second income in this turbulent economy. On top of all that she is a very nice person. I consider myself to be a very fortunate guy.
  - hnriot 14y ago
    Why not use her negotiation skills to turn her photography hobby into a money making venture?
    - russell 14y ago
      She's building a web site to showcase both her web development skills and her photography. I'm not sure whether she is going to look for a job or go for freelancing, but I think her inclination is to go for the latter. Her photography is much more art than commercial. She will probably pursue that as well.

yozmsn 14y ago

The title made me think he was negotiating with a salesman who had took his co-workers hostage or something...

Benferhat 14y ago

Any opinions on carsdirect.com?

cynwoody 14y ago

FWIW, the FBI agent's favorite car color, salsa red pearl, offered by Toyota: http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p80/02limited/Picture002.jpg http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p80/02limited/Picture002....

ljoshua 14y ago

For those who have purchased a house before (I may be about to start the process) do the same techniques apply, or is it a different ballgame?

jacquesm 14y ago
The market is in your favour right now, but in houses 'location, location, location' still holds true. It also very much depends on where you're buying. The main principles of negotiation (take your time, set yourself a price and if you can't get it for that price walk) apply. But there may be a scarcity of offerings that suit you, a place may have extra perks (location near water / the beach) and so on. The most important facts about buying a house are how long it has been on the market and what it was bought for. If you can't figure out the latter you may be able to make stab at it by comparing the market development relative to when the house changed hands last and what was done to improve it since. Happy house hunting!
pc86 14y ago
I purchased my home in an oldish (early 1920's) area a little more than a year ago. We knew exactly what we wanted and that helped tremendously: * Price we were willing to pay "out the door" (a hard, absolute max that wouldn't leave us in dire straits if one of us lost our job) * How much work we were willing to do after the sale * Tied in with the above, a minimum 1-year, preferably 2-year warranty on major repairs paid for by the seller * Within a 30 minute rush-hour commute to the furthest employer * 30-year mortgage that we can afford to pay off in 15 years * Any school district except the worst few in the area (no kids yet, but this is our first home and we'll have it 5-10 years; when we move kids will be just entering the equation and we need to plan that we may not be willing or able to move) As with any negotiation, the most important thing is knowing exactly what you need, what you want, and what you can (and will) spend. The hardest part (for me anyway) is getting a deal that is everything I need, most of what I want but is 2% more expensive than my max and still being willing to walk away.
vidarh 14y ago
Yes. I bought my house when the UK market was still booming, and sellers were used to houses going substantially over the advertised price. Instead we negotiated 10% off the advertised price, and I don't think we did particularly well even though the estate agent we dealt with seemed rather shocked to get an offer that low. In terms of picking the area, we did well - current value has increased at least 10% more than the average for London in the time since we bought. We could likely have started lower, and we messed it up by using some repairs that needed to be done (that were clearly priced into the advertised price) as an argument for dropping the price when we ought to have been able to get that price drop and make the offer contingent on the seller having some of the repairs done on their dime. The key thing is to be able to move quickly. They picked us because the alternative would have been to wait for other offers, while we turned around and started negotiating as soon as we were sure, offer an agreement in principle subject to a survey right off the bat if they could meet our price, had an agreement in principle from my bank, and had been renting so we stressed that we could move on everything immediately. If you can stress to the sellers estate agent in particular that you can move quickly, keep in mind that it will be in their interest to get a quick, trouble free sale vs. hanging on for weeks for 10% more commission, and that will influence how they deal with their client (conversely, it is in your interest whether selling or buying to be very wary when an estate agent pushes you to accept an offer - there's been some survey where it turned out estate agents typically hold out longer and sell for more when selling their own houses than their clients do).

hippich 14y ago

Bought from a guy on craigslist '00 Chrysler Concorde 3.2L for $2000 back in 2009 when we just moved into USA and desperately needed any car. Still drives. This car has really nice leather interior, huge trunk and actually is quite reliable. But because it is "domestic junk", price was very low. I am going to drive until it dies. And once it die, I will buy another "domestic junk" car and will be driving it for next few years :))

gregpilling 14y ago

I negotiated my last truck purchase by text message. I drove the salesman nuts by not responding quickly. I was at a happy hour in a pub, so I would only respond once per beverage. I got the price I wanted with no hassle. I avoided going to the dealer, they delivered. I avoided the dreaded Finance and Insurance guy that always tries to upsell, and I got them to buy the interest rate down too. The best part was the lack of stress for me.

SparrowOS 14y ago

God is just. If you marry someone out of your league, you will forever be dominated. If you get a job or school out of your league, you will regret it. Both these show God's justice. I have a feeling something bad happens if you get a good deal on a car, but I don't know what. On the otherhand, work is rewarded and if you put effort into purchases, it is rewarded. God says... 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 25:13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands. ---- Key thing from that passage was self service for kings. Also, God punishes with desolation.

pseut 14y ago

The last time I bought a new car, I used AAA's prenegotiated purchasing service: http://www.aaa.com/AAA_Travel/NewCar/buying_car.htm http://www.aaa.com/AAA_Travel/NewCar/buying_car.htm (this was in california; it doesn't seem to be available everywhere). So I don't have a cool story or any tips, but it was about the least stressful purchase I've ever made and was done pretty quickly.

drwl 14y ago

if you're really interested in negotiations, i recommend beyond reason by roger fisher and daniel shapiro

drucken 14y ago

Techniques explained in NPR episode: 1. The "Nibble" - ask a little more into the offer, especially if not directly related. 2. "Best Alternative To A Negotiated Agreement (BATNA)" - ensure there is a viable alternative, preferably before negotiation. 3. "Expanding the Pie" - offer can be often improved or agreed on parts of an item or service rather than assuming it applies only to the whole. 4. "Bracketing" [my term] - offer low to point of anger but not withdrawal, then praise counteroffer and negotiated item/service while claiming cannot afford counteroffer. 5. "Defer Immediate Agreement" [my term] - on best offer, defer immediate agreement with any reason so can gain time to check the offer or for other offers.