5 ms·

Silicon Valley is wrong about college

44 points by keithpeter 14y ago

keithpeter 14y ago
"Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. I had a professor in my freshman year of college who showed me that my mind could do math. And from there, I took charge." How important do we think Maths education is?
- voidlogic 14y ago
  Very? If I consider the math courses I took in college undergrad (I was a C-S major) there are some that are useful in everyday day life like pre-Calc (aka. algebra + trig) when I build a new deck or figure out how much grass seed to buy. Others courses such as Calc I and II are useful in understanding the issues and trends around me, both business and political. But the vast majority are valuable to me every day as I work on systems software: Mathematical Logic and Discrete Math, Graph Theory, Linear Algebra with Differential Eq & Intro to the Theory of computation. How can you not think Mathematics is important to tech?
  - davewiner 14y ago
    My studies in math led me to graph theory, before I took any Comp Sci. So yeah, I'd say my math was pretty helpful. It also stretches the mind. It's like saying weight training is useful if you're going to be a basketball player, even though there's no point in a game where you all stop and lift weights. :-) When you learn how to prove a theorem you are learning how to debug a program.
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    I most certainly agree! Music to my ears as I teach basic mathematics to adults. Probably near your 'pre-Calc' courses, but with an empirical and less abstract focus here in the UK. What I was getting at (and my not have explained clearly in my first comment) was the importance of a teacher who could inspire confidence in the student, in this case Dave Winer.
- kappaloris 14y ago
  scientific/rational thinking is fundamental to being able to understand and interact with reality.
- biesnecker 14y ago
  Fantastically important. Fundamentally, math == logic, and logic is the basis of all of mankind's post-Enlightenment gains in productivity, standard of living, etc.
japhyr 14y ago
The college experience is still pretty worthwhile, but the consequences of taking out loans in order to attend college are gettin uglier. My wife and I are both working in service fields - I am a teacher, and she is a counselor. We are both good at what we do. But we are at our income ceilings. We are paying as much in student loan payments as we are in housing costs. some of my colleagues will be in debt for the rest of their lives. Going to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be.
- biesnecker 14y ago
  "Going to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be." Honestly, (and you've basically said this), taking out significant loans to go to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be. I understand that for some people it's simply not possible to go to college without taking on debt. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of people. If someone would have made 18 year old me more aware of the burden that not going to a state school and working a job or two during my four years was going to be, I would have been a lot less likely to do it. Sure, I had fun, and I ended up without a lot of debt anyway, but it wasn't worth paying interest on for the better part of a decade.
  - mpweiher 14y ago
    "Honestly, (and you've basically said this), taking out significant loans to go to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be." One reason I returned to Europe.
  - wonderzombie 14y ago
    I think I could've also gone to a state school and come out with less debt. Ultimately it worked out, but I have to imagine there are plenty of people for whom it did not work out. Even if your degree is worthless in practice (because of circumstance, career, etc), at least you be paying out hundreds of dollars each month for loans.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    I understand that for some people it's simply not possible to go to college without taking on debt. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of people. Then why do 2/3 of all college students graduate with debt? Why have the largest tuition rises, by percentage, been seen in newly-defunded state universities?
switz 14y ago
Seriously, this post again? These are not black and white issues like every article on HN would lead you to believe.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  I think you are right, I live in a world of shades of grey. Now, what wighting would you give mathematical knowledge in the education of children? Say the weighting factors for all subjects added to 1.00.
PagingCraig 14y ago
Your blog post is all over the place.
001sky 14y ago
When you look at the problems our democracy has, probably the biggest one is the "low information voter." The ignorant electorate that says they want government out of our lives, but keep your hands off Medicare and Social Security, for example. == Puhleeeeeeez.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  I live in the UK, so I may not be up with US politics, and I know Winer has political views. Are you saying that Winer underestimates the median voter, or that Medicare is wrong? PS: I suspect you are being down-voted because you are not making your meaning clear.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    Regardless of policy, step back and look at the logic: "The biggest problem with our democracy is that [everyone esle] is stupid" This is the worst kind of ignorance, generally speaking.
mpweiher 14y ago
I also find it worrisome that what are effectively lottery winners are supposed to be role models, be it Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or, for that matter, rock and movie stars. Winning the lottery is not a good goal to set for a society or a generation (cf. Kant).
- clicks 14y ago
  > (cf. Kant) Sorry, but what do you mean there?
  - mpweiher 14y ago
    Reference to the categorical imperative. „Handle nur nach derjenigen Maxime, durch die du zugleich wollen kannst, dass sie ein allgemeines Gesetz werde.“ "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." Everyone can't win the lottery.
namank 14y ago
Disagree with the post although never before seen sex and accounting mentioned in the same sentence or on the same side of the comma. If they have the kind of drive at an early age, school only gets in the way. But school is very important for the dreamers who just talk.
g2e 14y ago
As a current college sophomore, I agree, education is important. However, I strongly believe that a degree does not define a person as educated. As long as you continuously have a general thirst for knowledge and act on it, you'll build your way to becoming an educated individual.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Excellent, now what part does mathematics play in your model of education? PS: I have learned to respect craft skills over the years. Those skills do not normally earn degree level certification in the UK (exceptions being surgeons, opticians and dentists).
  - g2e 14y ago
    Depends on the flavour of the mathematics being taught. If it's a computational calculus course where all you do is memorize integration patterns so you can integrate a boatload of functions, then it's not very beneficial. However if it's a logic course, where you learn how to prove theorems and understand what a proof really is, it would help you in any field. As long as the course doesn't train you to become a computer than I believe it's beneficial to one's education.
TillE 14y ago
Almost nobody has the drive necessary for completely unguided self-education, and even those people will inevitably miss some important things. I believe that a college education (lectures and assignments, at least) can be replicated online. I just don't see that anyone's done a particularly good job of it yet. There are lots of bits and pieces floating around, but not much overall structure.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  As a teacher, I like on-line resources as granular as possible so I can remix them and present them to students. My practice is then the 'glue' that sticks the bits together for the particular individuals I'm working for. Do you think that direct contact with a teacher (motivation and confidence building in the case of Winer's post) can be replaced by some other model?
swalsh 14y ago
As someone who left college early in favor of a career, take it from me, its a hell of a lot easier to learn things in school than outside of it.
pg 14y ago
"Nowadays Silicon Valley says that college education is a waste." This is false. I know a lot of people in Silicon Valley, and I know no one who says that. Even Peter Thiel, who is arguably the iconic college skeptic, only says that college might not be optimal for everyone.
- newishuser 14y ago
  Silicon Valley is not a thing that can have opinions. He's just being inflammatory.
  - roopeshv 14y ago
    so then westboro baptist church is not a hate group, thanks for the clarification
    - newishuser 14y ago
      I have no ability to downvote, so instead I leave my intention. Please try not to be so reactionary. Silicon Valley is a region in California. The Westboro Baptist Church is a private organization.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Good to hear that. I posted this because I was interested in the role of the College mathematics teacher who was able to give Dave Winer confidence that he could understand the subject, and that confidence boosted Winer's belief in his abilities in other areas. I suspected there was a degree of rhetoric in the post. http://threads2.scripting.com/2012/december/siliconValleyIsWrongAboutCollege#comment-751556266 http://threads2.scripting.com/2012/december/siliconValleyIsW... This comment is interesting (ELGG is an important sharing tool with educational applications)
- diego 14y ago
  That line is unfortunate, however he does make some good points in the article. My experience is that private universities tend to cater more to the individual than to the needs of society at large. Countries with free college education are different in that respect. You could argue that one is better than the other, and that catering to the individual helps society indirectly. Of course, that's a longer discussion.
stratosvoukel 14y ago
In Europe the knowledge you need to be a educated voter and citizen is supposed to be taught at high school. Most european countries dont have generic education lessons at all. I dont think the purpose of colleges should be making someone a good citizen, that is the role of public education that everyone receives.
munger 14y ago
I think college, aside from a few useful things you learn and problems with student debt - if nothing else is a good education for playing a game (and learning some discipline). You have rules and constraints - structure. You can determine what the point of the game is. For example, the point could be - to get the most A's (high marks) with the least amount of effort and the most free time left over for fun. You don't have to take school itself seriously, but it is similar to a career where it pays to play the game.
newishuser 14y ago
Silicon Valley is not a thing with opinions. You can't call an inanimate object wrong in this way. What you meant to say was, "I believe a College education is important." But that title isn't inflammatory and eye catching. Anyway, I think the greater argument isn't, "Drop out of college and become Bill Gates." It's "College tuition prices have gotten so out of hand that it might no longer be worth what you pay for." Going to a private 4 year can easily cost you more than 100k. With 100k and the right motivation, you can start any number of businesses and teach yourself more about entrepreneurship than you could have in a 4 year business program and you have the chance of it making you money instead of just being a purchase.
enra 14y ago
I don't understand how college helps "low information voters". I would guess those people don't go to college or can't afford it anyway. If you want to help educate people, make it free or almost free, like Khan or startups in the Valley are trying to do.
sunwooz 14y ago
It doesn't make sense to go to college when everything you learn in college can be learned in a book. Also, some subjects just can't be taught in classrooms-- Foreign languages for example, is pretty dismal in colleges. I've yet to meet someone who actually speaks a foreign language who studied for nearly 8 years in high school and college. Education is evolving and we shouldn't cling on to this archaic method of learning when there are plenty of better ways to learn.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
yummyfajitas 14y ago
The idea that education will address the problem of the low information voter is nonsensical. The probability of your vote affecting the outcome is too low to be represented in double precision arithmetic (last time I did the calculation). Therefore, you have no incentive to vote correctly. Even if education gives you the tools to become a high information voter, why would you bother? Just vote for whichever candidate gives you $0.01 worth of self congratulation about not being a racist, having good family values, or whatever.
- dullcrisp 14y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your point. What chance of personally deciding the outcome of an election do you need to have before voting is worth your time? 50%? One votes for the same reasons one refrains from littering in a public park, or gives a few dollars to a charity, or donates blood, or contributes to a Kickstarter campaign, or volunteers to go to war, or pays taxes. Not mainly because of the chance that your individual contribution will make a difference in and of itself, but to do your part in making society better for everyone. From the perspective of the whole social organism, if you refuse to do these things because your individual contributions don't make a direct difference, you're one of the harmful cells.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    What chance of personally deciding the outcome of an election do you need to have before voting is worth your time? 50%? You need P(affecting outcome) x (value of positive outcome) > cost of voting. Even assuming the value of a positive outcome is vastly bigger than the size of the world economy (e.g. $10^15, maybe $10^20), P(affecting outcome) is so fantastically low in any state with political leanings that you might as well not bother. Littering in a public park is a separate issue - the effect of littering is cumulative, whereas the effect of voting is based on a threshold. Your litter makes the park incrementally worse. Donating blood does make a significant measurable difference - one particular person gets your unit of blood, and this helps them avoid death. A dollar value can be assigned to all the things we've mentioned. Donating blood is worth multiple dollars, littering in a park is probably harmful to the tune of a few pennies. The dollar value of your vote is so small that double precision floats treat it as 0.
ojr 14y ago
I am pursuing a degree in CS but im also a Javascript Hacker out of the classroom, (wrongly hating Java by default, I blame the community). I thought I would struggle coming into a Java class because "Java is to Javascript as Ham is to Hamster" blah blah blah. College forced me to see the similarities, for-loops, dot/bracket notation, using a library to import certain methods etc... I would never have drill myself to learn these if I didn't go to school because I would have stayed away from Java as far as possible but I'm glad I did. It also gave me extra confidence and self-validation that the code I write works kind of like Test Driven Development ;) Everyone should go to as much education they can afford or what they seem necessary, and learning out of classroom is important as well
pcote 14y ago
Oh, this topic again. What the heck... >Nowadays Silicon Valley says that college education is a waste. I wasn't aware of Silicon Valley being of one voice on this matter. Is there a representative spokesperson I don't know about? >I find this disturbing. I want them to educate better citizens, not richer business people. Personally, I'm not aware of how college made me a better citizen. > But first comes the person, not the bank account. I am not a better person than someone who didn't or couldn't go to college. >When you look at the problems our democracy has, probably the biggest one is the "low information voter." After the grade pressure was off, a potential job was the only thing that could get me to research anything. Later on, I learned to let my own curiosity have a say in what I looked into. I think I became a lot more "educated" when I got to that point.
stared 14y ago
I would like to defend Silicon Valley a bit. More and more education is out current needs. And it will never catch up, as a huge system, with many constrains, large inertia etc. A programme which was perfect (say) 30 years ago may be not longer up to date - when jobs and technologies change rapidly. Additionally, now almost everything programming-related is on the Internet. See http://xkcd.com/519/ http://xkcd.com/519/ for a comment on usefulness of formal education. Sure, when someone's dream is to become "the next Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg" it's not the right motivation to quit education. But I know a lot of smart people who dropped out because of their IT work, or company - and their motivation is not unlike one's who finished their degrees.
jmohsenin 14y ago
I recently decided not to attend UC Berkeley in favor of starting my career in product design. A lot has already been covered here, but a couple points: > Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. Your entire personal anecdote is based off of you dropping out of high school. One could argue that if you had completed high school, there would be less value in college for you. > I don't think Gates and Zuckerberg are good role models for young people. You don't think Bill Gates is a good role model for young people? What's a better role model then one of the world's richest people trying to solve giant social issues? Gates should be a role model to all rich people! Zuck's not there yet, but his recent charitable giving suggests that later in his life he'll follow the same path. > Most kids who try to be the next billionaire entrepreneur will fail. When did being an entrepreneur become all about making money? Of all the college dropouts-turned SV kids I know (including myself) money is never the primary driver. > And if we push the kids toward that, we will lead them to believe, mistakenly, that it's enough to create a massive fortune. It is not enough. And if they fail to create the fortune, according to this standard, they will have failed in life. What 'standard' are you referring to? I think a lot college students these days understand that money doesn't equal happiness. I think the author is a bit misguided as to the reasons behind some kids choose not to attend college. Personally, I'm devoted to product design, learn better on my own/with a small team, and affiliate strongly with SV culture. I'm not worried that I'm not going to be 'educated' – I see that as a ten-year, twenty-year, or even lifetime goal.
tthomas48 14y ago
It us bizarre to me since the most in demand employees are basically high tech liberal arts. A mix of engineering, art, psychology, and performance is pretty much the killer skill set right now (and I'd imagine in the future. My BA in theater and dance mixed with programming and troubleshooting skills has always been an easy sell when interviewing.
ethioblog 14y ago
I mostly agree with you, Dave. I wish you included one more dimension to your thought, the cost of it. Is college education something to pursue at any cost? What is the role of online, self study type of learning? My thinking is: college education is important but NOT at any cost.
AZDave 14y ago
So, if I pay into Social Security and expect to see something when I retire, but am opposed to government control of, say education, or the postal service, I'm an ignorant hypocrite? I guess Dave missed the lessons in college on informal logic because he would have learned about strawman arguments and the part to whole fallacy.

44 points by keithpeter 14y ago

"Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. I had a professor in my freshman year of college who showed me that my mind could do math. And from there, I took charge." How important do we think Maths education is?

voidlogic 14y ago
Very? If I consider the math courses I took in college undergrad (I was a C-S major) there are some that are useful in everyday day life like pre-Calc (aka. algebra + trig) when I build a new deck or figure out how much grass seed to buy. Others courses such as Calc I and II are useful in understanding the issues and trends around me, both business and political. But the vast majority are valuable to me every day as I work on systems software: Mathematical Logic and Discrete Math, Graph Theory, Linear Algebra with Differential Eq & Intro to the Theory of computation. How can you not think Mathematics is important to tech?
- davewiner 14y ago
  My studies in math led me to graph theory, before I took any Comp Sci. So yeah, I'd say my math was pretty helpful. It also stretches the mind. It's like saying weight training is useful if you're going to be a basketball player, even though there's no point in a game where you all stop and lift weights. :-) When you learn how to prove a theorem you are learning how to debug a program.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  I most certainly agree! Music to my ears as I teach basic mathematics to adults. Probably near your 'pre-Calc' courses, but with an empirical and less abstract focus here in the UK. What I was getting at (and my not have explained clearly in my first comment) was the importance of a teacher who could inspire confidence in the student, in this case Dave Winer.
kappaloris 14y ago
scientific/rational thinking is fundamental to being able to understand and interact with reality.
biesnecker 14y ago
Fantastically important. Fundamentally, math == logic, and logic is the basis of all of mankind's post-Enlightenment gains in productivity, standard of living, etc.

japhyr 14y ago

The college experience is still pretty worthwhile, but the consequences of taking out loans in order to attend college are gettin uglier. My wife and I are both working in service fields - I am a teacher, and she is a counselor. We are both good at what we do. But we are at our income ceilings. We are paying as much in student loan payments as we are in housing costs. some of my colleagues will be in debt for the rest of their lives. Going to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be.

biesnecker 14y ago
"Going to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be." Honestly, (and you've basically said this), taking out significant loans to go to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be. I understand that for some people it's simply not possible to go to college without taking on debt. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of people. If someone would have made 18 year old me more aware of the burden that not going to a state school and working a job or two during my four years was going to be, I would have been a lot less likely to do it. Sure, I had fun, and I ended up without a lot of debt anyway, but it wasn't worth paying interest on for the better part of a decade.
- mpweiher 14y ago
  "Honestly, (and you've basically said this), taking out significant loans to go to college is not the same straightforward decision it used to be." One reason I returned to Europe.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  I think I could've also gone to a state school and come out with less debt. Ultimately it worked out, but I have to imagine there are plenty of people for whom it did not work out. Even if your degree is worthless in practice (because of circumstance, career, etc), at least you be paying out hundreds of dollars each month for loans.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  I understand that for some people it's simply not possible to go to college without taking on debt. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of people. Then why do 2/3 of all college students graduate with debt? Why have the largest tuition rises, by percentage, been seen in newly-defunded state universities?

switz 14y ago

Seriously, this post again? These are not black and white issues like every article on HN would lead you to believe.

keithpeter 14y ago
I think you are right, I live in a world of shades of grey. Now, what wighting would you give mathematical knowledge in the education of children? Say the weighting factors for all subjects added to 1.00.

PagingCraig 14y ago

Your blog post is all over the place.

001sky 14y ago

When you look at the problems our democracy has, probably the biggest one is the "low information voter." The ignorant electorate that says they want government out of our lives, but keep your hands off Medicare and Social Security, for example. == Puhleeeeeeez.

keithpeter 14y ago
I live in the UK, so I may not be up with US politics, and I know Winer has political views. Are you saying that Winer underestimates the median voter, or that Medicare is wrong? PS: I suspect you are being down-voted because you are not making your meaning clear.
- 001sky 14y ago
  Regardless of policy, step back and look at the logic: "The biggest problem with our democracy is that [everyone esle] is stupid" This is the worst kind of ignorance, generally speaking.

mpweiher 14y ago

I also find it worrisome that what are effectively lottery winners are supposed to be role models, be it Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or, for that matter, rock and movie stars. Winning the lottery is not a good goal to set for a society or a generation (cf. Kant).

clicks 14y ago
> (cf. Kant) Sorry, but what do you mean there?
- mpweiher 14y ago
  Reference to the categorical imperative. „Handle nur nach derjenigen Maxime, durch die du zugleich wollen kannst, dass sie ein allgemeines Gesetz werde.“ "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." Everyone can't win the lottery.

namank 14y ago

Disagree with the post although never before seen sex and accounting mentioned in the same sentence or on the same side of the comma. If they have the kind of drive at an early age, school only gets in the way. But school is very important for the dreamers who just talk.

g2e 14y ago

As a current college sophomore, I agree, education is important. However, I strongly believe that a degree does not define a person as educated. As long as you continuously have a general thirst for knowledge and act on it, you'll build your way to becoming an educated individual.

keithpeter 14y ago
Excellent, now what part does mathematics play in your model of education? PS: I have learned to respect craft skills over the years. Those skills do not normally earn degree level certification in the UK (exceptions being surgeons, opticians and dentists).
- g2e 14y ago
  Depends on the flavour of the mathematics being taught. If it's a computational calculus course where all you do is memorize integration patterns so you can integrate a boatload of functions, then it's not very beneficial. However if it's a logic course, where you learn how to prove theorems and understand what a proof really is, it would help you in any field. As long as the course doesn't train you to become a computer than I believe it's beneficial to one's education.

TillE 14y ago

Almost nobody has the drive necessary for completely unguided self-education, and even those people will inevitably miss some important things. I believe that a college education (lectures and assignments, at least) can be replicated online. I just don't see that anyone's done a particularly good job of it yet. There are lots of bits and pieces floating around, but not much overall structure.

keithpeter 14y ago
As a teacher, I like on-line resources as granular as possible so I can remix them and present them to students. My practice is then the 'glue' that sticks the bits together for the particular individuals I'm working for. Do you think that direct contact with a teacher (motivation and confidence building in the case of Winer's post) can be replaced by some other model?

swalsh 14y ago

As someone who left college early in favor of a career, take it from me, its a hell of a lot easier to learn things in school than outside of it.

pg 14y ago

"Nowadays Silicon Valley says that college education is a waste." This is false. I know a lot of people in Silicon Valley, and I know no one who says that. Even Peter Thiel, who is arguably the iconic college skeptic, only says that college might not be optimal for everyone.

newishuser 14y ago
Silicon Valley is not a thing that can have opinions. He's just being inflammatory.
- roopeshv 14y ago
  so then westboro baptist church is not a hate group, thanks for the clarification
  - newishuser 14y ago
    I have no ability to downvote, so instead I leave my intention. Please try not to be so reactionary. Silicon Valley is a region in California. The Westboro Baptist Church is a private organization.
keithpeter 14y ago
Good to hear that. I posted this because I was interested in the role of the College mathematics teacher who was able to give Dave Winer confidence that he could understand the subject, and that confidence boosted Winer's belief in his abilities in other areas. I suspected there was a degree of rhetoric in the post. http://threads2.scripting.com/2012/december/siliconValleyIsWrongAboutCollege#comment-751556266 http://threads2.scripting.com/2012/december/siliconValleyIsW... This comment is interesting (ELGG is an important sharing tool with educational applications)
diego 14y ago
That line is unfortunate, however he does make some good points in the article. My experience is that private universities tend to cater more to the individual than to the needs of society at large. Countries with free college education are different in that respect. You could argue that one is better than the other, and that catering to the individual helps society indirectly. Of course, that's a longer discussion.

stratosvoukel 14y ago

In Europe the knowledge you need to be a educated voter and citizen is supposed to be taught at high school. Most european countries dont have generic education lessons at all. I dont think the purpose of colleges should be making someone a good citizen, that is the role of public education that everyone receives.

munger 14y ago

I think college, aside from a few useful things you learn and problems with student debt - if nothing else is a good education for playing a game (and learning some discipline). You have rules and constraints - structure. You can determine what the point of the game is. For example, the point could be - to get the most A's (high marks) with the least amount of effort and the most free time left over for fun. You don't have to take school itself seriously, but it is similar to a career where it pays to play the game.

newishuser 14y ago

Silicon Valley is not a thing with opinions. You can't call an inanimate object wrong in this way. What you meant to say was, "I believe a College education is important." But that title isn't inflammatory and eye catching. Anyway, I think the greater argument isn't, "Drop out of college and become Bill Gates." It's "College tuition prices have gotten so out of hand that it might no longer be worth what you pay for." Going to a private 4 year can easily cost you more than 100k. With 100k and the right motivation, you can start any number of businesses and teach yourself more about entrepreneurship than you could have in a 4 year business program and you have the chance of it making you money instead of just being a purchase.

enra 14y ago

I don't understand how college helps "low information voters". I would guess those people don't go to college or can't afford it anyway. If you want to help educate people, make it free or almost free, like Khan or startups in the Valley are trying to do.

sunwooz 14y ago

It doesn't make sense to go to college when everything you learn in college can be learned in a book. Also, some subjects just can't be taught in classrooms-- Foreign languages for example, is pretty dismal in colleges. I've yet to meet someone who actually speaks a foreign language who studied for nearly 8 years in high school and college. Education is evolving and we shouldn't cling on to this archaic method of learning when there are plenty of better ways to learn.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

yummyfajitas 14y ago

The idea that education will address the problem of the low information voter is nonsensical. The probability of your vote affecting the outcome is too low to be represented in double precision arithmetic (last time I did the calculation). Therefore, you have no incentive to vote correctly. Even if education gives you the tools to become a high information voter, why would you bother? Just vote for whichever candidate gives you $0.01 worth of self congratulation about not being a racist, having good family values, or whatever.

dullcrisp 14y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point. What chance of personally deciding the outcome of an election do you need to have before voting is worth your time? 50%? One votes for the same reasons one refrains from littering in a public park, or gives a few dollars to a charity, or donates blood, or contributes to a Kickstarter campaign, or volunteers to go to war, or pays taxes. Not mainly because of the chance that your individual contribution will make a difference in and of itself, but to do your part in making society better for everyone. From the perspective of the whole social organism, if you refuse to do these things because your individual contributions don't make a direct difference, you're one of the harmful cells.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  What chance of personally deciding the outcome of an election do you need to have before voting is worth your time? 50%? You need P(affecting outcome) x (value of positive outcome) > cost of voting. Even assuming the value of a positive outcome is vastly bigger than the size of the world economy (e.g. $10^15, maybe $10^20), P(affecting outcome) is so fantastically low in any state with political leanings that you might as well not bother. Littering in a public park is a separate issue - the effect of littering is cumulative, whereas the effect of voting is based on a threshold. Your litter makes the park incrementally worse. Donating blood does make a significant measurable difference - one particular person gets your unit of blood, and this helps them avoid death. A dollar value can be assigned to all the things we've mentioned. Donating blood is worth multiple dollars, littering in a park is probably harmful to the tune of a few pennies. The dollar value of your vote is so small that double precision floats treat it as 0.

ojr 14y ago

I am pursuing a degree in CS but im also a Javascript Hacker out of the classroom, (wrongly hating Java by default, I blame the community). I thought I would struggle coming into a Java class because "Java is to Javascript as Ham is to Hamster" blah blah blah. College forced me to see the similarities, for-loops, dot/bracket notation, using a library to import certain methods etc... I would never have drill myself to learn these if I didn't go to school because I would have stayed away from Java as far as possible but I'm glad I did. It also gave me extra confidence and self-validation that the code I write works kind of like Test Driven Development ;) Everyone should go to as much education they can afford or what they seem necessary, and learning out of classroom is important as well

pcote 14y ago

Oh, this topic again. What the heck... >Nowadays Silicon Valley says that college education is a waste. I wasn't aware of Silicon Valley being of one voice on this matter. Is there a representative spokesperson I don't know about? >I find this disturbing. I want them to educate better citizens, not richer business people. Personally, I'm not aware of how college made me a better citizen. > But first comes the person, not the bank account. I am not a better person than someone who didn't or couldn't go to college. >When you look at the problems our democracy has, probably the biggest one is the "low information voter." After the grade pressure was off, a potential job was the only thing that could get me to research anything. Later on, I learned to let my own curiosity have a say in what I looked into. I think I became a lot more "educated" when I got to that point.

stared 14y ago

I would like to defend Silicon Valley a bit. More and more education is out current needs. And it will never catch up, as a huge system, with many constrains, large inertia etc. A programme which was perfect (say) 30 years ago may be not longer up to date - when jobs and technologies change rapidly. Additionally, now almost everything programming-related is on the Internet. See http://xkcd.com/519/ http://xkcd.com/519/ for a comment on usefulness of formal education. Sure, when someone's dream is to become "the next Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg" it's not the right motivation to quit education. But I know a lot of smart people who dropped out because of their IT work, or company - and their motivation is not unlike one's who finished their degrees.

jmohsenin 14y ago

I recently decided not to attend UC Berkeley in favor of starting my career in product design. A lot has already been covered here, but a couple points: > Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. Your entire personal anecdote is based off of you dropping out of high school. One could argue that if you had completed high school, there would be less value in college for you. > I don't think Gates and Zuckerberg are good role models for young people. You don't think Bill Gates is a good role model for young people? What's a better role model then one of the world's richest people trying to solve giant social issues? Gates should be a role model to all rich people! Zuck's not there yet, but his recent charitable giving suggests that later in his life he'll follow the same path. > Most kids who try to be the next billionaire entrepreneur will fail. When did being an entrepreneur become all about making money? Of all the college dropouts-turned SV kids I know (including myself) money is never the primary driver. > And if we push the kids toward that, we will lead them to believe, mistakenly, that it's enough to create a massive fortune. It is not enough. And if they fail to create the fortune, according to this standard, they will have failed in life. What 'standard' are you referring to? I think a lot college students these days understand that money doesn't equal happiness. I think the author is a bit misguided as to the reasons behind some kids choose not to attend college. Personally, I'm devoted to product design, learn better on my own/with a small team, and affiliate strongly with SV culture. I'm not worried that I'm not going to be 'educated' – I see that as a ten-year, twenty-year, or even lifetime goal.

tthomas48 14y ago

It us bizarre to me since the most in demand employees are basically high tech liberal arts. A mix of engineering, art, psychology, and performance is pretty much the killer skill set right now (and I'd imagine in the future. My BA in theater and dance mixed with programming and troubleshooting skills has always been an easy sell when interviewing.

ethioblog 14y ago

I mostly agree with you, Dave. I wish you included one more dimension to your thought, the cost of it. Is college education something to pursue at any cost? What is the role of online, self study type of learning? My thinking is: college education is important but NOT at any cost.

AZDave 14y ago

So, if I pay into Social Security and expect to see something when I retire, but am opposed to government control of, say education, or the postal service, I'm an ignorant hypocrite? I guess Dave missed the lessons in college on informal logic because he would have learned about strawman arguments and the part to whole fallacy.