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> Booting Linux on these devices would involve finding a flaw in the firmware and using that to run arbitrary code Considering there hasn't been a major consol

> Booting Linux on these devices would involve finding a flaw in the firmware and using that to run arbitrary code Considering there hasn't been a major console (including xbox) that's been immune from crackers running arbitrary code, I'm pretty confident that we'll be seeing linux running on the surface at some point. Unfortunately the article's title is probably accurate; It's probably going to be too difficult for someone who's not a very-motivated linux fan to do it. It's a shame too, when I first saw the surface my initial reaction was "Holy crap, if I can wipe it and put Arch on it it's the perfect mobile laptop replacement, I'll buy it for sure". Oh well, guess I'll have to wait to see how easy the jailbreak is.

zokier 14y ago
PS3 was released in 2006, and finally broken in 2010 due key management issues (not a flaw in the firmware afaik). Do you really think that running Linux on Surface in 2016 will be relevant anymore? The device probably will be EOLed long before that.
- kragen 14y ago
  Until 2010 you could run Linux on the PS3 without breaking any kind of security, using the built-in "OtherOS" feature. On April 1, 2010, that feature was removed with a firmware update. I think it actually took until 2011 for a working jailbreak to be released. Your overall point is correct, even if the PlayStation is not a good supporting argument.
  - zokier 14y ago
    Access to the hardware via OtherOS was afaik severely limited, and more comparable to having Linux on a virtual machine than running it on the actual hardware. iirc eg the GPU was not accessible in OtherOS which limited the usefulness quite much.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      The presence of OtherOS, crippled as it was, prevented enough people from being interested in putting in the effort to get more out. The general consensus at the time seemed to be that this was exactly the sort of effect Sony was going for when they included OtherOS in the first place.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  At one point, after OtherOS was removed but before the keys were reverse engineered, there was some sort of "jailbreak" that used a bug in the PS3's USB stack.
  - zokier 14y ago
    Before the keys were reverse engineered the exploits were limited to running userland code only afaik, ie you couldn't replace the firmware/os with those.
mjg59 14y ago
Nobody's broken the AppleTV v3 yet, despite v2s going for well above original sale price on Ebay due to their hackability. Sometimes the difficulty/payoff ratio isn't sufficient for anyone to find a flaw. (Or maybe everyone who could produce a jailbreak for the v3s is engaged in a lucrative business selling v2s on Ebay)
- akavlie 14y ago
  Thanks for letting us know! They're going for $164+ on Amazon.com (my selling venue of choice -- eBay is too much trouble). Looks like I'll get an upgrade and extra cash for my v2, as I'm not interested in hacking.
- Xuzz 14y ago
  The reason the Apple TV 3 hasn't been jailbroken is because it provides a tiny attack surface. There's no web browser to exploit, and there's no iTunes syncing. So even when exploits have been found in various parts of iOS, most of those parts either don't exist or inaccessible on the Apple TV.
  - killahpriest 14y ago
    As chpwn, are you still involved in the jailbreak community? (btw sent from the news:yc app).
- jmspring 14y ago
  I understand the desire to hack and tweak. That said, for my household, AppleTV is about the wife and I being able to watch Netflix, homeshare pictures and (more important) movies with minimal hassle. Hadn't realized AppleTV v2 had a market. Tempted to upgrade and make some cash.
  - zatara 14y ago
    Jailbreak, install XBMC and use your iPhone/iPad as a remote. You can thank me later.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Mmm, tell that to all the people who bought Motorola phones and told me off when I warned against it with the same logic. "It will be broken soon enough". To this day, it is not possible to boot alternative kernels on many moto devices, save for some sort of rebooter with kexec or because an engineering bootloader (signed of course) was leaked or it's one of the handful of devices that the Motorola unlock tool supports. I'd love to be wrong, I promise you, but if MS has done their homework right and looked at what others have done, it ought to be close to possible. (Also note that the primary way of compromising the Xbox these days requires electrically glitching hardware. I suppose something similar could be devised for a targeted ARM device but it seems less likly given the cost/benefit that mjg referenced).
alayne 14y ago
Even if you got Linux to boot, would you have drivers for the hardware?
- mjg59 14y ago
  Probably. Microsoft's pushed hard to turn the ARM market into something closer to the PC one - Windows RT devices are required to have UEFI and ACPI, so device discovery is a solved problem. As far as the actual drivers go, the majority of the parts are almost certainly also present in at least one Android device on the market, and the touchscreen presumably uses the Microsoft multitouch protocol that's already supported by the Linux kernel. The biggest hurdle you'd face is actually that Linux doesn't support ACPI or UEFI on ARM yet. I believe that Linaro are working on that, though.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    >the touchscreen presumably uses the Microsoft multitouch protocol that's already supported by the Linux kernel. Does that also apply to touchpads? The last thing in Linux that never ever works well for me is the touchpad. touchegg is mildly better, I've tried tweaking synclient with limited success...
tsahyt 14y ago
My initial reaction was essentially the same (give or take a distro). The lockdown is really a shame, since thus far this is the most attractive tablet I've seen, especially with the keyboard. I'm pretty sure someone will be able to jailbreak it, though it might take some time. I think the whole secure-boot thing will work out somehow in the future. I'm not prepared to have my next PC locked down, keeping me from running the OS I want. Until then, I will quite simply not buy a new machine. If I've learned anything about computer security in my life, it's that there is no such thing.

zokier 14y ago

PS3 was released in 2006, and finally broken in 2010 due key management issues (not a flaw in the firmware afaik). Do you really think that running Linux on Surface in 2016 will be relevant anymore? The device probably will be EOLed long before that.

kragen 14y ago
Until 2010 you could run Linux on the PS3 without breaking any kind of security, using the built-in "OtherOS" feature. On April 1, 2010, that feature was removed with a firmware update. I think it actually took until 2011 for a working jailbreak to be released. Your overall point is correct, even if the PlayStation is not a good supporting argument.
- zokier 14y ago
  Access to the hardware via OtherOS was afaik severely limited, and more comparable to having Linux on a virtual machine than running it on the actual hardware. iirc eg the GPU was not accessible in OtherOS which limited the usefulness quite much.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    The presence of OtherOS, crippled as it was, prevented enough people from being interested in putting in the effort to get more out. The general consensus at the time seemed to be that this was exactly the sort of effect Sony was going for when they included OtherOS in the first place.
jlgreco 14y ago
At one point, after OtherOS was removed but before the keys were reverse engineered, there was some sort of "jailbreak" that used a bug in the PS3's USB stack.
- zokier 14y ago
  Before the keys were reverse engineered the exploits were limited to running userland code only afaik, ie you couldn't replace the firmware/os with those.

mjg59 14y ago

Nobody's broken the AppleTV v3 yet, despite v2s going for well above original sale price on Ebay due to their hackability. Sometimes the difficulty/payoff ratio isn't sufficient for anyone to find a flaw. (Or maybe everyone who could produce a jailbreak for the v3s is engaged in a lucrative business selling v2s on Ebay)

akavlie 14y ago
Thanks for letting us know! They're going for $164+ on Amazon.com (my selling venue of choice -- eBay is too much trouble). Looks like I'll get an upgrade and extra cash for my v2, as I'm not interested in hacking.
Xuzz 14y ago
The reason the Apple TV 3 hasn't been jailbroken is because it provides a tiny attack surface. There's no web browser to exploit, and there's no iTunes syncing. So even when exploits have been found in various parts of iOS, most of those parts either don't exist or inaccessible on the Apple TV.
- killahpriest 14y ago
  As chpwn, are you still involved in the jailbreak community? (btw sent from the news:yc app).
jmspring 14y ago
I understand the desire to hack and tweak. That said, for my household, AppleTV is about the wife and I being able to watch Netflix, homeshare pictures and (more important) movies with minimal hassle. Hadn't realized AppleTV v2 had a market. Tempted to upgrade and make some cash.
- zatara 14y ago
  Jailbreak, install XBMC and use your iPhone/iPad as a remote. You can thank me later.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

Mmm, tell that to all the people who bought Motorola phones and told me off when I warned against it with the same logic. "It will be broken soon enough". To this day, it is not possible to boot alternative kernels on many moto devices, save for some sort of rebooter with kexec or because an engineering bootloader (signed of course) was leaked or it's one of the handful of devices that the Motorola unlock tool supports. I'd love to be wrong, I promise you, but if MS has done their homework right and looked at what others have done, it ought to be close to possible. (Also note that the primary way of compromising the Xbox these days requires electrically glitching hardware. I suppose something similar could be devised for a targeted ARM device but it seems less likly given the cost/benefit that mjg referenced).

alayne 14y ago

Even if you got Linux to boot, would you have drivers for the hardware?

mjg59 14y ago
Probably. Microsoft's pushed hard to turn the ARM market into something closer to the PC one - Windows RT devices are required to have UEFI and ACPI, so device discovery is a solved problem. As far as the actual drivers go, the majority of the parts are almost certainly also present in at least one Android device on the market, and the touchscreen presumably uses the Microsoft multitouch protocol that's already supported by the Linux kernel. The biggest hurdle you'd face is actually that Linux doesn't support ACPI or UEFI on ARM yet. I believe that Linaro are working on that, though.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  >the touchscreen presumably uses the Microsoft multitouch protocol that's already supported by the Linux kernel. Does that also apply to touchpads? The last thing in Linux that never ever works well for me is the touchpad. touchegg is mildly better, I've tried tweaking synclient with limited success...

tsahyt 14y ago

My initial reaction was essentially the same (give or take a distro). The lockdown is really a shame, since thus far this is the most attractive tablet I've seen, especially with the keyboard. I'm pretty sure someone will be able to jailbreak it, though it might take some time. I think the whole secure-boot thing will work out somehow in the future. I'm not prepared to have my next PC locked down, keeping me from running the OS I want. Until then, I will quite simply not buy a new machine. If I've learned anything about computer security in my life, it's that there is no such thing.