5 ms·

They are contractually obligated to pay me, but it isn't worth it to collect. Plus, I still like them. It's mostly just startups that ran out of money.

ryguytilidie 14y ago
"It's mostly just startups that ran out of money." How is it excusable to have a finite sum of money, commit to paying you some of it, use all of it and then simply say "crap, we ran out of money". Some of the founders I've seen in the valley come off as incredibly immature and irresponsible, but this just amazes me, I genuinely cannot imagine being a businessperson and doing that.
- marcamillion 14y ago
  It's actually a lot easier than you might imagine. You can kick off a $10K project with someone - when you have $50K in the bank and you expect to receive $50K in the next 4 - 8 weeks. As a result of many variables, you either don't receive that $50K and have blown through the first $50K on things you needed immediately (like salaries for your employees, light, the deposit on the project, etc.) - and because the project took 6 weeks longer than you anticipated, you never had the money when the project was done. Don't be so quick to judge. I am a consultant and have to deal with clients not paying on-time too - so I am not excusing it, but these things happen much more frequently than you may think.
  - ryguytilidie 14y ago
    "Don't be so quick to judge." I don't understand. Do you NOT think people who do what you said above are irresponsible? If you have 50k in the bank and will need to use all of it on your employees and whatnot in the next 4-8 weeks, you absolutely, 100% should not be committing 10k to a project, it seems super irresponsible and amateurish. If I'm committing 10k to a project, I'm going to make damned sure I actually have 10k set aside for it. If you don't you absolutely should not be hiring anyone.
    - marcamillion 14y ago
      As I said....it's not always as black and white as that. Perhaps you DID set aside the $50K + $10K separately but then something comes up that you didn't forsee - which actually happens a lot (like one of your employees gets sick and needs surgery, their health insurance is blown through very quickly - or perhaps you didn't have health insurance for them - or one of a million other eventualities that happens when running your own business). It's easy to judge people when you have never been through it. As much as you are responsible, the very art of starting a company from scratch means you have to deal with things that come up that were unexpected - on a regular basis. i.e. you can't plan for EVERY. SINGLE. Eventuality. It's literally impossible. Yes, you may have gone through it and never had that issue - but not everybody has the same experience that you did. Don't assume because they don't have your exact experience that means they are irresponsible.
      - mgkimsal 14y ago
        Someone getting sick might put you back on your schedule, but shouldn't be coming out of your own pocket. To the extent that delays in the project might mean delays in funding, I can accept that, but someone who can't judge expenditures out 4-6 weeks shouldn't be making financial commitments for 4-6 weeks in the future. I say this as someone who ran a business, lost a lot of money, had checks bouncing, and all that. It was not pretty, but I didn't for one minute try to pin the blame on anyone but myself - I made poor financial decisions. I was irresponsible. It didn't seem like it at the time, but it was.
      - ryguytilidie 14y ago
        I am absolutely floored at your rationale here. Every single thing you describe is completely irresponsible. Didn't buy health insurance for your employees? You're not irresponsible, everyone else just "doesn't understand. I'm not asking anyone to plan for every eventuality, but if you can't afford to pay someone, and still hire them anyway, I frankly don't think you deserve to run a business ever again. I feel like these founders should be named and shamed every single time this happens.
- pc86 14y ago
  > How is it excusable [...] The simple answer is "it's not." You're completely right that the people who do this crap are immature, irresponsible and have no business having the financial well-being of their employees in their hands. If you've got $10k earmarked and you need it for something else (such as electricity), it's your responsibility to contact the vendor, cancel work immediately, pay whatever portion of the $10k you're legally obligated to pay them because you signed a goddamned contract and hope that you have enough left over for whatever you need. My consulting contract specifically states that not only is the agreement between myself and the client company, but also between myself and the client company's principal(s) personally. I make it exceedingly clear both in the contract and in face-to-face discussions that I run a business, I'm not in the business of doing work without getting paid, and I will not waste months trying to get my money before turning to more serious measures (such as litigation, which has only had to happen once and was settled for the full amount within 24 hours of the original summons).

ryguytilidie 14y ago

"It's mostly just startups that ran out of money." How is it excusable to have a finite sum of money, commit to paying you some of it, use all of it and then simply say "crap, we ran out of money". Some of the founders I've seen in the valley come off as incredibly immature and irresponsible, but this just amazes me, I genuinely cannot imagine being a businessperson and doing that.

marcamillion 14y ago
It's actually a lot easier than you might imagine. You can kick off a $10K project with someone - when you have $50K in the bank and you expect to receive $50K in the next 4 - 8 weeks. As a result of many variables, you either don't receive that $50K and have blown through the first $50K on things you needed immediately (like salaries for your employees, light, the deposit on the project, etc.) - and because the project took 6 weeks longer than you anticipated, you never had the money when the project was done. Don't be so quick to judge. I am a consultant and have to deal with clients not paying on-time too - so I am not excusing it, but these things happen much more frequently than you may think.
- ryguytilidie 14y ago
  "Don't be so quick to judge." I don't understand. Do you NOT think people who do what you said above are irresponsible? If you have 50k in the bank and will need to use all of it on your employees and whatnot in the next 4-8 weeks, you absolutely, 100% should not be committing 10k to a project, it seems super irresponsible and amateurish. If I'm committing 10k to a project, I'm going to make damned sure I actually have 10k set aside for it. If you don't you absolutely should not be hiring anyone.
  - marcamillion 14y ago
    As I said....it's not always as black and white as that. Perhaps you DID set aside the $50K + $10K separately but then something comes up that you didn't forsee - which actually happens a lot (like one of your employees gets sick and needs surgery, their health insurance is blown through very quickly - or perhaps you didn't have health insurance for them - or one of a million other eventualities that happens when running your own business). It's easy to judge people when you have never been through it. As much as you are responsible, the very art of starting a company from scratch means you have to deal with things that come up that were unexpected - on a regular basis. i.e. you can't plan for EVERY. SINGLE. Eventuality. It's literally impossible. Yes, you may have gone through it and never had that issue - but not everybody has the same experience that you did. Don't assume because they don't have your exact experience that means they are irresponsible.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
      Someone getting sick might put you back on your schedule, but shouldn't be coming out of your own pocket. To the extent that delays in the project might mean delays in funding, I can accept that, but someone who can't judge expenditures out 4-6 weeks shouldn't be making financial commitments for 4-6 weeks in the future. I say this as someone who ran a business, lost a lot of money, had checks bouncing, and all that. It was not pretty, but I didn't for one minute try to pin the blame on anyone but myself - I made poor financial decisions. I was irresponsible. It didn't seem like it at the time, but it was.
    - ryguytilidie 14y ago
      I am absolutely floored at your rationale here. Every single thing you describe is completely irresponsible. Didn't buy health insurance for your employees? You're not irresponsible, everyone else just "doesn't understand. I'm not asking anyone to plan for every eventuality, but if you can't afford to pay someone, and still hire them anyway, I frankly don't think you deserve to run a business ever again. I feel like these founders should be named and shamed every single time this happens.
pc86 14y ago
> How is it excusable [...] The simple answer is "it's not." You're completely right that the people who do this crap are immature, irresponsible and have no business having the financial well-being of their employees in their hands. If you've got $10k earmarked and you need it for something else (such as electricity), it's your responsibility to contact the vendor, cancel work immediately, pay whatever portion of the $10k you're legally obligated to pay them because you signed a goddamned contract and hope that you have enough left over for whatever you need. My consulting contract specifically states that not only is the agreement between myself and the client company, but also between myself and the client company's principal(s) personally. I make it exceedingly clear both in the contract and in face-to-face discussions that I run a business, I'm not in the business of doing work without getting paid, and I will not waste months trying to get my money before turning to more serious measures (such as litigation, which has only had to happen once and was settled for the full amount within 24 hours of the original summons).