6 ms·

There are lots of documentation of atrocities made by states. So, you judge the west with a differently different yard stick because there are corporations her

by berntb 14y ago

There are lots of documentation of atrocities made by states. So, you judge the west with a differently different yard stick because there are corporations here and they are different in quality from e.g. the mass murders of Communist parties (google Great Chinese Hunger etc etc), the Mongol invasion, the Spanish state (South/Latin America), etc...? Here, in the real world, we consider it bad form to blame e.g. Germans (or the Swedes, or...) for their parents/ancestors misdeeds. But YOU blame the west for 600 years old crimes -- because some of the countries had partly free corporations at the time!! Wow... I'll just take one argument here: The western world started science, partly through corporate research. This has increased peoples' food/health/education for centuries. This effect should be much larger than any corporate atrocities can be. (It would surprise me if you think that is relevant... :-) ) I have a conclusion: If you're not trolling, I think you "know" that corporations(/the west) are bad -- and really are willing to make any logical sophisms to keep your faith.

jacquesm 14y ago
No, it's simply because I still benefit from those crimes even today.
- berntb 14y ago
  OK... So, only crimes done by a corporation -- not a state. And the crimes can be 600 years old, no statute of limitations!! And there is no bookkeeping for boons the corporation(s) did for victims (industrialization etc etc etc). Probably billions of identifiable people (Mongols in China, people in Argentina where they slaughtered the locals, etc) enjoy a better life from atrocities the last 600 years. But those that did invasions without corporations has no responsibility!? Now, after at least three explanations, you still argue something that is completely weird -- compared to every similar case in history/law/morality I have heard of/read about. That is enough for me. (If you're e.g. Belgian and rich because of what happened a hundred years ago in Africa, that is unpalatable -- but doesn't reflect more upon you personally than WW II on Germans. And 600 years?! both our ancestors ought to have been on all sides of all atrocities in Europe at that time... I'm not going to beat myself up over that.) Edit: On the other hand... I have played with the thought of keeping track of people whose family fortunes were gotten in an inhuman way (corruption, part of a tyrant regime, etc). The perpetrators should lose motivation when their future rich relatives will be badly shamed. I might agree with that setup, but not only for corporations -- and hardly 600 years back(!).
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    I'm not beating myself up over it. I just notice that there is a debt, and a substantial one and that it is unlikely to be paid back. And these things are still happening today, for instance this man that decided to speak out against the royal Dutch Shell oil company and got murdered for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa
    - berntb 14y ago
      You just ignored 90+% of what I wrote as answers to your strange opinions. Sigh... OK. Wiki page says "outspoken critic of the Nigerian government ... hanged in 1995 by the military government" 1995 is not "today" -- and the whole execution might even have been done by the military dictatorship, without Shell even directly asking them to do it. (From what I've read about Nigeria, this doesn't seem unlikely.) If Shell was involved (why would they murder internationally known critics -- the resulting sh-t storm is obvious) -- was any higher up Shell people involved? It is ridiculous how you limit your criticism to corporations. Any of the tyrants worth his own weight in human ears have done worse than most any corporation since 1995. I think I'm being trolled.
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        "Initially as spokesperson, and then as President, of the Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People (MOSOP), Saro-Wiwa led a nonviolent campaign against environmental degradation of the land and waters of Ogoniland by the operations of the multinational petroleum industry, especially the Royal Dutch Shell company. He was also an outspoken critic of the Nigerian government, which he viewed as reluctant to enforce environmental regulations on the foreign petroleum companies operating in the area." And there was an international shitstorm regarding this which is how I came to know about it. Shell was implicated as having leaned on the Nigerian government to get rid of this troublemaker which they promptly did. Bits like "At least two witnesses who testified that Saro-Wiwa was involved in the murders of the Ogoni elders later recanted, stating that they had been bribed with money and offers of jobs with Shell to give false testimony – in the presence of Shell’s lawyer." in the wikipedia article should hopefully convince you of that. Really, I feel a bit insulted by your references to being trolled, it's not as if I'm the new guy around here. Feel free to disagree with me but calling names is really bad form. Shell did what they did because they thought they could get away with it. 1995 is today enough that I remember clearly reading about this in the papers, and about many other big oil crimes since then. I purposefully selected something that should clearly register as an outrage on your spectrum and the only thing you bring up to defend it is that it wasn't 'today'. There are many more recent crimes by large corporations but this one stood out for me. And no, I don't limit my criticism to corporations but if you look back a bit then you'll notice that this thread started about corporations so that is the topic.

by berntb 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

No, it's simply because I still benefit from those crimes even today.

berntb 14y ago
OK... So, only crimes done by a corporation -- not a state. And the crimes can be 600 years old, no statute of limitations!! And there is no bookkeeping for boons the corporation(s) did for victims (industrialization etc etc etc). Probably billions of identifiable people (Mongols in China, people in Argentina where they slaughtered the locals, etc) enjoy a better life from atrocities the last 600 years. But those that did invasions without corporations has no responsibility!? Now, after at least three explanations, you still argue something that is completely weird -- compared to every similar case in history/law/morality I have heard of/read about. That is enough for me. (If you're e.g. Belgian and rich because of what happened a hundred years ago in Africa, that is unpalatable -- but doesn't reflect more upon you personally than WW II on Germans. And 600 years?! both our ancestors ought to have been on all sides of all atrocities in Europe at that time... I'm not going to beat myself up over that.) Edit: On the other hand... I have played with the thought of keeping track of people whose family fortunes were gotten in an inhuman way (corruption, part of a tyrant regime, etc). The perpetrators should lose motivation when their future rich relatives will be badly shamed. I might agree with that setup, but not only for corporations -- and hardly 600 years back(!).
- jacquesm 14y ago
  I'm not beating myself up over it. I just notice that there is a debt, and a substantial one and that it is unlikely to be paid back. And these things are still happening today, for instance this man that decided to speak out against the royal Dutch Shell oil company and got murdered for that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa
  - berntb 14y ago
    You just ignored 90+% of what I wrote as answers to your strange opinions. Sigh... OK. Wiki page says "outspoken critic of the Nigerian government ... hanged in 1995 by the military government" 1995 is not "today" -- and the whole execution might even have been done by the military dictatorship, without Shell even directly asking them to do it. (From what I've read about Nigeria, this doesn't seem unlikely.) If Shell was involved (why would they murder internationally known critics -- the resulting sh-t storm is obvious) -- was any higher up Shell people involved? It is ridiculous how you limit your criticism to corporations. Any of the tyrants worth his own weight in human ears have done worse than most any corporation since 1995. I think I'm being trolled.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      "Initially as spokesperson, and then as President, of the Movement for the Survival of the Ogoni People (MOSOP), Saro-Wiwa led a nonviolent campaign against environmental degradation of the land and waters of Ogoniland by the operations of the multinational petroleum industry, especially the Royal Dutch Shell company. He was also an outspoken critic of the Nigerian government, which he viewed as reluctant to enforce environmental regulations on the foreign petroleum companies operating in the area." And there was an international shitstorm regarding this which is how I came to know about it. Shell was implicated as having leaned on the Nigerian government to get rid of this troublemaker which they promptly did. Bits like "At least two witnesses who testified that Saro-Wiwa was involved in the murders of the Ogoni elders later recanted, stating that they had been bribed with money and offers of jobs with Shell to give false testimony – in the presence of Shell’s lawyer." in the wikipedia article should hopefully convince you of that. Really, I feel a bit insulted by your references to being trolled, it's not as if I'm the new guy around here. Feel free to disagree with me but calling names is really bad form. Shell did what they did because they thought they could get away with it. 1995 is today enough that I remember clearly reading about this in the papers, and about many other big oil crimes since then. I purposefully selected something that should clearly register as an outrage on your spectrum and the only thing you bring up to defend it is that it wasn't 'today'. There are many more recent crimes by large corporations but this one stood out for me. And no, I don't limit my criticism to corporations but if you look back a bit then you'll notice that this thread started about corporations so that is the topic.