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So, it's like because of ...government propaganda in schooling? Strangely that haven't made people in the sixties question the government any less, despite sch

So, it's like because of ...government propaganda in schooling? Strangely that haven't made people in the sixties question the government any less, despite school being even more strict at the time...

msgilligan 14y ago
People from the sixties now run the government -- are they questioning it?
- Evbn 14y ago
  99% of people from the sixties are not running the government.
  - msgilligan 14y ago
    True, but more than half of them voted for it.
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      So? They dit it because they rather not have a Republican president. Voting is about getting the lesser of two evils.
baddox 14y ago
There's no point in calling it "government propaganda," as if it's some secret conspiracy or something. It's really not a secret. Children spend 12 or 13 years learning the government's version of its own history. Even on this thread, how many comments are verbatim talking points from public school curriculum? "The government gets its authority from the people (social contract)," "we have a voice in government," "government serves us," "the constitution limits the power of government," "the atomic bombs saved millions of American and Japanese lives," "the goal of the government's foreign policy is to spread and protect democracy," etc. How many people repeat these lines that have been hammered into their brains, and how many actually think about how meaningful and truthful they are?
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. The government is both a kind of "autonomous entity" with serving self-interests AND something somewhat controlled by the public (not just by voting: also by the mere fact that it involves thousands of people, has to balance different interests, is bounded by specific procedures, it needs a level of constent for it's actions, etc). To put it this way, from all the entities out there, the government is the more accountable. You think the government serves some big interests (big corporations etc?). It sure does. But a country only at the mercy of private interests, without a mediator like a democratic government, would be intolerable. Actually it would be like what it's in some Banana Republics, where the "government" is essentially a front for corporations and private interests. That said, the government (any government) is also the scum of the earth, especially went left to rule without vigilance. Sponsors and big interests come into play and bureaucracy wants to increase its reach and rule as far as it can. And of course government wants to justify itself and its actions, hence the "official version of history", in which the nuclear bombs "ended the war" (whereas Japan, a nation collapsed and willing to sign a peace treaty was nuked just so that US could showcase the new bombs and send a message to the Reds for the post-war state of things). Or in which "Pearl Harbor" was ..."unprovoked" (whereas the US presidency did all it could before it happened to ensure a war with Japan). Of course the Japanese have their own "official history", in which they didn't do anything bad in Manchuria and Korea (where they enslaved, raped, torture, and genocide-like killed thousands of people).
  - baddox 14y ago
    The only issue I have with your characterization of government is that you make too much of a distinction between "the government" and any other organization of individuals, such as a corporation or business. What you call a democratic government is still less accountable than a normal capitalistic business, and I'll argue that the government is strictly less accountable, because the government is the only organization (with a few potential counter examples) that can and does use a massive campaign of organized violence to maintain and exercise power. The ability to vote is no more powerful in affecting government as the ability to choose who to engage in commerce with is in affecting businesses. But businesses don't get to use violence to earn revenue, public schools to indoctrinate children (which is way more effective than advertisements), welfare and retirement campaigns to incentivize government dependence, etc.

msgilligan 14y ago

People from the sixties now run the government -- are they questioning it?

Evbn 14y ago
99% of people from the sixties are not running the government.
- msgilligan 14y ago
  True, but more than half of them voted for it.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    So? They dit it because they rather not have a Republican president. Voting is about getting the lesser of two evils.

baddox 14y ago

There's no point in calling it "government propaganda," as if it's some secret conspiracy or something. It's really not a secret. Children spend 12 or 13 years learning the government's version of its own history. Even on this thread, how many comments are verbatim talking points from public school curriculum? "The government gets its authority from the people (social contract)," "we have a voice in government," "government serves us," "the constitution limits the power of government," "the atomic bombs saved millions of American and Japanese lives," "the goal of the government's foreign policy is to spread and protect democracy," etc. How many people repeat these lines that have been hammered into their brains, and how many actually think about how meaningful and truthful they are?

pretoriusB 14y ago
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple. The government is both a kind of "autonomous entity" with serving self-interests AND something somewhat controlled by the public (not just by voting: also by the mere fact that it involves thousands of people, has to balance different interests, is bounded by specific procedures, it needs a level of constent for it's actions, etc). To put it this way, from all the entities out there, the government is the more accountable. You think the government serves some big interests (big corporations etc?). It sure does. But a country only at the mercy of private interests, without a mediator like a democratic government, would be intolerable. Actually it would be like what it's in some Banana Republics, where the "government" is essentially a front for corporations and private interests. That said, the government (any government) is also the scum of the earth, especially went left to rule without vigilance. Sponsors and big interests come into play and bureaucracy wants to increase its reach and rule as far as it can. And of course government wants to justify itself and its actions, hence the "official version of history", in which the nuclear bombs "ended the war" (whereas Japan, a nation collapsed and willing to sign a peace treaty was nuked just so that US could showcase the new bombs and send a message to the Reds for the post-war state of things). Or in which "Pearl Harbor" was ..."unprovoked" (whereas the US presidency did all it could before it happened to ensure a war with Japan). Of course the Japanese have their own "official history", in which they didn't do anything bad in Manchuria and Korea (where they enslaved, raped, torture, and genocide-like killed thousands of people).
- baddox 14y ago
  The only issue I have with your characterization of government is that you make too much of a distinction between "the government" and any other organization of individuals, such as a corporation or business. What you call a democratic government is still less accountable than a normal capitalistic business, and I'll argue that the government is strictly less accountable, because the government is the only organization (with a few potential counter examples) that can and does use a massive campaign of organized violence to maintain and exercise power. The ability to vote is no more powerful in affecting government as the ability to choose who to engage in commerce with is in affecting businesses. But businesses don't get to use violence to earn revenue, public schools to indoctrinate children (which is way more effective than advertisements), welfare and retirement campaigns to incentivize government dependence, etc.