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You keep using this word, "strawmen". I don't think it means what you think it means. The thing is, we're describing historical figures. Our "subjective opinio

You keep using this word, "strawmen". I don't think it means what you think it means. The thing is, we're describing historical figures. Our "subjective opinions" are not really helpful guides. Or, to be more accurate, they don't matter at all. You keep repeating it's your "subjective opinion" as if that somehow makes it OK. A subjective opinion can be wrong. It's not like one can get away with saying "In my subjective opinion gravity doesn't exist". Or, to be more accurate, it's one thing to say that you find what Hitler DID was evil or that he was an evil-doer (as a substitute for "bad") and leave it at that. And it's totally another thing to say "Hitler was evil", as if that is some kind of explanation of his actions. The first is mighty fine. The second is not. And I'm concerned with the latter mistake here which is a BS non explanation, analogous to "cargo cult programming", and it doesn't matter if one means it as his subjective opinion or as an objective observation. In both cases, it hinders further and real understanding. To get to why Hitler was like that and why he did what he did you go for the underlying causes. For the person it's his history, his ideological influences, experiences, mental issues, abuses, etc. For the German society in general the causes are historical, sociological, economical, cultural, etc. Nowhere in those cases does "evil" come into play at all.

neumann_alfred 14y ago
You keep using this word, "strawmen". I don't think it means what you think it means. It means you make up stuff about my position and respond to that, instead of responding to my actual position. And now you just Dunning-Kruger on and on about generalities in a shallow way, as if I didn't know all of that and more of what you post. WTF. it's totally another thing to say "Hitler was evil" No, it's a shorthand for saying "I disapprove of his actions". It's stupid enough to outright claim what I mean by that, but now that I told you OVER AND OVER, to simply ignore it and bang on about your strawman instead is just pathetic. Cut your losses dude.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >No, it's a shorthand for saying "I disapprove of his actions". It's the worst possible way to say that you "disapprove of his actions".
bokonist 14y ago
I agree that it is very important to understand the context and history behind awful events. But the concept of "evil" is still very useful. The point of defining evil is so that you can teach people not to be evil. Humans may not have a "conscience" that comes from God, but our brains have evolved for a sense of conscience that can be cultivated via the social pressure of parents, family, friends, teachers, and leaders. The point of calling a person evil is to tell people, "Do not be like this person! This person was evil! If you are acting like this person act, you are a bad human being, and you should feel very bad about yourself and stop immediately." In the case of the rise of Hitler, yes, there were events that led to his rise. But the rise of Hitler was not inevitable. Had Hitler been raised with a stronger, better moral compass, had the people who enabled his rise possessed a better moral compass, the war and the Holocaust would not have happened. After the war, the American occupiers rebuilt the education system to teach people that what Hitler did is evil, in order to install a moral compass that would prevent a repeat of the Holocaust from happening again. The Holocaust was not a tragic accident, it was not a necessary proportional response needed to prevent some other acts of suffering, the Holocaust was an act of evil. It should be labeled as such so that people's consciences will work to prevent it from happening again.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >But the concept of "evil" is still very useful. The point of defining evil is so that you can teach people not to be evil. >But the rise of Hitler was not inevitable. Had Hitler been raised with a stronger, better moral compass, had the people who enabled his rise possessed a better moral compass, the war and the Holocaust would not have happened. Things could have happened differently, but the war was more or less unavoidable due to the Versaille treaty. Hilter was just one man -- millions of Germans wanted "war" and were enraged with the treaty even before Hitler became known. >After the war, the American occupiers rebuilt the education system to teach people that what Hitler did is evil, in order to install a moral compass that would prevent a repeat of the Holocaust from happening again. What? This is extremely condescending to the German people. They knew very well what they did, and the rebuilding of the educational system has nothing to do with their "moral compass". You really believe that they needed ...Americans to instill a "moral system" onto them?!!! As if Americans are ...morally superior people?!!!

neumann_alfred 14y ago

You keep using this word, "strawmen". I don't think it means what you think it means. It means you make up stuff about my position and respond to that, instead of responding to my actual position. And now you just Dunning-Kruger on and on about generalities in a shallow way, as if I didn't know all of that and more of what you post. WTF. it's totally another thing to say "Hitler was evil" No, it's a shorthand for saying "I disapprove of his actions". It's stupid enough to outright claim what I mean by that, but now that I told you OVER AND OVER, to simply ignore it and bang on about your strawman instead is just pathetic. Cut your losses dude.

pretoriusB 14y ago
>No, it's a shorthand for saying "I disapprove of his actions". It's the worst possible way to say that you "disapprove of his actions".

bokonist 14y ago

I agree that it is very important to understand the context and history behind awful events. But the concept of "evil" is still very useful. The point of defining evil is so that you can teach people not to be evil. Humans may not have a "conscience" that comes from God, but our brains have evolved for a sense of conscience that can be cultivated via the social pressure of parents, family, friends, teachers, and leaders. The point of calling a person evil is to tell people, "Do not be like this person! This person was evil! If you are acting like this person act, you are a bad human being, and you should feel very bad about yourself and stop immediately." In the case of the rise of Hitler, yes, there were events that led to his rise. But the rise of Hitler was not inevitable. Had Hitler been raised with a stronger, better moral compass, had the people who enabled his rise possessed a better moral compass, the war and the Holocaust would not have happened. After the war, the American occupiers rebuilt the education system to teach people that what Hitler did is evil, in order to install a moral compass that would prevent a repeat of the Holocaust from happening again. The Holocaust was not a tragic accident, it was not a necessary proportional response needed to prevent some other acts of suffering, the Holocaust was an act of evil. It should be labeled as such so that people's consciences will work to prevent it from happening again.

pretoriusB 14y ago
>But the concept of "evil" is still very useful. The point of defining evil is so that you can teach people not to be evil. >But the rise of Hitler was not inevitable. Had Hitler been raised with a stronger, better moral compass, had the people who enabled his rise possessed a better moral compass, the war and the Holocaust would not have happened. Things could have happened differently, but the war was more or less unavoidable due to the Versaille treaty. Hilter was just one man -- millions of Germans wanted "war" and were enraged with the treaty even before Hitler became known. >After the war, the American occupiers rebuilt the education system to teach people that what Hitler did is evil, in order to install a moral compass that would prevent a repeat of the Holocaust from happening again. What? This is extremely condescending to the German people. They knew very well what they did, and the rebuilding of the educational system has nothing to do with their "moral compass". You really believe that they needed ...Americans to instill a "moral system" onto them?!!! As if Americans are ...morally superior people?!!!