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Evil is a BS theological notion. I wish people would stop perpetuating it. You can call it by other names, and you do; mentally ill for example. Yet, there is

Evil is a BS theological notion. I wish people would stop perpetuating it. You can call it by other names, and you do; mentally ill for example. Yet, there is no rational objective reason to declare anything wrong, evil or whatever; not even the extinction of all life in the universe, or torture for all. There is no "objective evil" any human could declare, it boils down to opinions; so I make up my own mind. Deal with that, not with strawmen. More to the point, nobody calls the leaders of the allies evil, despite they having done equally abominable actions, like killing 250.000 civillians (men, women, elderly, children, babies, kittens et al) with two nuclear bombs, or bombing hundreds of thousands of civillians in Dresden to shreds. But they are not called "evil", because they were on "our" side No, because that was in response to a huge campaign to conquer Europe (let's ignore the death camps and whatnot for a moment). I am German, and I would laugh into the face of any German crying about Dresden. All things considered, Germany was treated a thousand times better than it deserved during and after the war. You haven't been to a whole lot of historical museums dealing with the topic, have you? Or seen movies, that kind of thing? Anyone who murdered and ultimately defeated Nazis was on my side, no quotes needed. I know the allies were and are full of crap as well, and did and do plenty of evil (my subjective idea of it, get it?) things, but in the case of the Nazis, no response could have been too brutal. I would not say this about other dictators, but "as a German" that's how I feel about the Nazis, who weren't just horrible to Germans and German Jews, but to all of Europe. But that doesn't mean I buy into any dichotomy making the Allies holy or something. Just that I'm glad they were stopped somehow, seeing how shamefully Germany handled herself. it's not like they enjoyed killing people (as is probably the understanding of naive people calling them 'evil') No, that's just a strawman. Fact is, they didn't mind. In my books that's enough. Part of the massacres were result of the inevitable power plays in huge countries with hundreds of millions population under a revolution Let's grant that; what about the other parts? The personality cults? How convenient to tell me what I think and then refute it.. and I feel kinda bad because all of this is off-topic to begin, but I couldn't let this slide.

pretoriusB 14y ago
>There is no "objective evil" any human could declare, it boils down to opinions; so I make up my own mind. Deal with that, not with strawmen. People don't have to stand for anybody "making up his own mind", the same way that people don't have to respect your opinion if you believe in creationism for example. Even if you are in the majority, there is one correct way to look at the thing, and there are no two ways about it. Especially since the words and notions we opt to use has consequences to what we perceive and how we treat other people. It's important to choose the correct ones, or the less wrong ones. The notion of harm (and the common-sense ethical notion of good) are well understood. The notion of evil, OTOH, is theological bullshit, and only helps to obscure the matters at hand (by making it difficult to get to the actual reasoning and motivations of the person, for example). >No, because that was in response to a huge campaign to conquer Europe And Hitler's rise to power and actions was a response to the "treaty of Versailles", which was considered unfair, humiliating and suffocating the Germans. See how it works both ways? And who said that killing civillians with nuclear bombs is an acceptable "response to a huge campaign to conquer Europe"? >I am German, and I would laugh into the face of any German crying about Dresden. You might, but millions of other people, German or not German, would not. Civillians are civillians and people killed by bombs are still people, whether German or not. And I'm talking as a citizen of a country that suffered much under German rule in WWII. >You haven't been to a whole lot of historical museums dealing with the topic, have you? Or seen movies, that kind of thing? Well, you guys have bombed my city, destroyed some of it's more important monuments, --and killed my grandmother's brother. I don't have to visit "a lot of historical museums". Which I have, plus read tons of books on the matter. >No, that's just a strawman. Fact is, they didn't mind. In my books that's enough. Well, fact is Truman didn't mind dropping two big bombs on civillians either. Or France didn't mind slaughtering 50.000 Algerians protesting to get their freedom back. Just two examples...
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  Even if you are in the majority, there is one correct way to look at the thing Where did I claim otherwise? Nowhere! I actually said "seeing how it's subjective". Yet you just won't stop with your strawmen. Consider yourself ignored, this is useless, especially your "oh yeah? X was bad too!" stuff, which I never denied either.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >Where did I claim otherwise? Nowhere! I actually said "seeing how it's subjective". Wait what? All your reply is based on the notion that it's ok to have this subjective use of "evil". I say the opposite: it's not OK, and we are better to use more objective ways to describe reality.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    You can delude yourself into being more objective, but you can't actually be so. I therefore submit it's best to be aware of it being subjective. Objectively, the heat death of the universe trumps any and all considerations, ever. Also you are now claiming the exact opposite of what you said earlier: Evil is a BS theological notion. ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982366 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982366 ) But now you want to tell me what is objectively wrong? I dare you go ahead and try, haha..
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >Also you are now claiming the exact opposite of what you said earlier: "Evil is a BS theological notion". But now you want to tell me what is objectively wrong? I dare you go ahead and try, haha.. For one, I fail to see where I claim the "exact opposite". Throughout the discourse I maintain that "evil is a theological notion" and one that doesn't describe reality (the two go hand in hand). I also fail to see the "dare" in wanting me to say what is "objectively wrong". That the Earth is flat is "objectively wrong" for example. That Cleopatra was in fact a guy from Bronx is "objectively wrong". And that theological terms such as "evil" explain what people are in objective reality is "objectively wrong".
powertower 14y ago
I'm curious about your view as a German who has formed a strong opinion on WW2... Someone once said the following, what do you think of it? Quote - History is always written by the victors. Considering the absolute defeat of Germany during WW2 (and complete victor control of it afterwards), I would argue that the last place you'll find an accurate, unbiased, and neutral depiction of what really caused and transpired during WW2 would be in Germany - due to the total absorption of the Allied P.O.V. thrust into the country, into movies, into the news, and into the collective mind-set of the world. No, I'm not denying the Holocaust or embracing Neo-Nazism, or whatever it is that people first think when they read the above. Bad and terrible things did happen. But what I am doing is questioning History itself when it's so polluted with agendas, revisionism, redactions, and downright lies. Hitler's War - First WW2 Documentary Ever From German Perspective http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBIoJc4k1uE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBIoJc4k1uE - End Quote
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  I never absorbed the allied POV. IBM greatly helped with the logistics of the death camps, Hitler was Time magazine man of the year, Pearl Harbour was basically sacrificing a few ships to be able to enter the war, and the result is America was the superpower of the world, also having gained Nazi rocket scientists and "experts in fighting communism". I don't mean to make a clear point with all this, just throwing out some stuff to point out I'm cynical 360°. But that doesn't change and doesn't undo what the Nazis did, and how they went about it. And I really just mean reading THEIR material, watching THEIR footage, listening to THEIR speeches. Goebbels screaming for total war, and denouncing pacifists as the worst enemy right after the Jews... I also possess a 4th grade history book that was printed in 1942 I think, and it's so whiny and revisionistic.. basically the whole world is evil and brutish and the Germans try to make it all better and struggle for peace blah di blah, in such a plump fashion that it's hard to believe a lot of Germans really fell for all that. And yes, it's for kids, but still. The grown-up propaganda wasn't exactly more sophisticated. These were a bunch of crippled and/or ugly people, the leader being an Austrian, talking about The German Master Race. Nuff said? And the conceit to think once they got going, the Brits might join in, being white and whatnot. That dude flying over the channel behind Hitler's back, I forgot his name, probably being disappointed by his welcome. Silly Nazi with bad English and a dumb grin. I really, really wish they wouldn't have killed so many people, or I would find them kinda funny. And then there's Neonazis. No revisionism needed, they're generally dumb as doorknobs. I could prove that to myself whenever I should forget by interacting with them. Ironically, that youtube video is blocked in Germany. So I can't speak to that. I doubt that title though. Germany did a lot of reflection and introspection, what does "from a German perspective" even mean? German filmmakers, German research, German witnesses -- there are lots of documentaries that consist of that, so what is "from a German perspective"? I'm not sure if I want to fire up a proxy to watch something that could turn out to be some kind of revisionistic BS.

pretoriusB 14y ago

>There is no "objective evil" any human could declare, it boils down to opinions; so I make up my own mind. Deal with that, not with strawmen. People don't have to stand for anybody "making up his own mind", the same way that people don't have to respect your opinion if you believe in creationism for example. Even if you are in the majority, there is one correct way to look at the thing, and there are no two ways about it. Especially since the words and notions we opt to use has consequences to what we perceive and how we treat other people. It's important to choose the correct ones, or the less wrong ones. The notion of harm (and the common-sense ethical notion of good) are well understood. The notion of evil, OTOH, is theological bullshit, and only helps to obscure the matters at hand (by making it difficult to get to the actual reasoning and motivations of the person, for example). >No, because that was in response to a huge campaign to conquer Europe And Hitler's rise to power and actions was a response to the "treaty of Versailles", which was considered unfair, humiliating and suffocating the Germans. See how it works both ways? And who said that killing civillians with nuclear bombs is an acceptable "response to a huge campaign to conquer Europe"? >I am German, and I would laugh into the face of any German crying about Dresden. You might, but millions of other people, German or not German, would not. Civillians are civillians and people killed by bombs are still people, whether German or not. And I'm talking as a citizen of a country that suffered much under German rule in WWII. >You haven't been to a whole lot of historical museums dealing with the topic, have you? Or seen movies, that kind of thing? Well, you guys have bombed my city, destroyed some of it's more important monuments, --and killed my grandmother's brother. I don't have to visit "a lot of historical museums". Which I have, plus read tons of books on the matter. >No, that's just a strawman. Fact is, they didn't mind. In my books that's enough. Well, fact is Truman didn't mind dropping two big bombs on civillians either. Or France didn't mind slaughtering 50.000 Algerians protesting to get their freedom back. Just two examples...

neumann_alfred 14y ago
Even if you are in the majority, there is one correct way to look at the thing Where did I claim otherwise? Nowhere! I actually said "seeing how it's subjective". Yet you just won't stop with your strawmen. Consider yourself ignored, this is useless, especially your "oh yeah? X was bad too!" stuff, which I never denied either.
pretoriusB 14y ago
>Where did I claim otherwise? Nowhere! I actually said "seeing how it's subjective". Wait what? All your reply is based on the notion that it's ok to have this subjective use of "evil". I say the opposite: it's not OK, and we are better to use more objective ways to describe reality.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  You can delude yourself into being more objective, but you can't actually be so. I therefore submit it's best to be aware of it being subjective. Objectively, the heat death of the universe trumps any and all considerations, ever. Also you are now claiming the exact opposite of what you said earlier: Evil is a BS theological notion. ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982366 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982366 ) But now you want to tell me what is objectively wrong? I dare you go ahead and try, haha..
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >Also you are now claiming the exact opposite of what you said earlier: "Evil is a BS theological notion". But now you want to tell me what is objectively wrong? I dare you go ahead and try, haha.. For one, I fail to see where I claim the "exact opposite". Throughout the discourse I maintain that "evil is a theological notion" and one that doesn't describe reality (the two go hand in hand). I also fail to see the "dare" in wanting me to say what is "objectively wrong". That the Earth is flat is "objectively wrong" for example. That Cleopatra was in fact a guy from Bronx is "objectively wrong". And that theological terms such as "evil" explain what people are in objective reality is "objectively wrong".

powertower 14y ago

I'm curious about your view as a German who has formed a strong opinion on WW2... Someone once said the following, what do you think of it? Quote - History is always written by the victors. Considering the absolute defeat of Germany during WW2 (and complete victor control of it afterwards), I would argue that the last place you'll find an accurate, unbiased, and neutral depiction of what really caused and transpired during WW2 would be in Germany - due to the total absorption of the Allied P.O.V. thrust into the country, into movies, into the news, and into the collective mind-set of the world. No, I'm not denying the Holocaust or embracing Neo-Nazism, or whatever it is that people first think when they read the above. Bad and terrible things did happen. But what I am doing is questioning History itself when it's so polluted with agendas, revisionism, redactions, and downright lies. Hitler's War - First WW2 Documentary Ever From German Perspective http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBIoJc4k1uE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBIoJc4k1uE - End Quote

neumann_alfred 14y ago
I never absorbed the allied POV. IBM greatly helped with the logistics of the death camps, Hitler was Time magazine man of the year, Pearl Harbour was basically sacrificing a few ships to be able to enter the war, and the result is America was the superpower of the world, also having gained Nazi rocket scientists and "experts in fighting communism". I don't mean to make a clear point with all this, just throwing out some stuff to point out I'm cynical 360°. But that doesn't change and doesn't undo what the Nazis did, and how they went about it. And I really just mean reading THEIR material, watching THEIR footage, listening to THEIR speeches. Goebbels screaming for total war, and denouncing pacifists as the worst enemy right after the Jews... I also possess a 4th grade history book that was printed in 1942 I think, and it's so whiny and revisionistic.. basically the whole world is evil and brutish and the Germans try to make it all better and struggle for peace blah di blah, in such a plump fashion that it's hard to believe a lot of Germans really fell for all that. And yes, it's for kids, but still. The grown-up propaganda wasn't exactly more sophisticated. These were a bunch of crippled and/or ugly people, the leader being an Austrian, talking about The German Master Race. Nuff said? And the conceit to think once they got going, the Brits might join in, being white and whatnot. That dude flying over the channel behind Hitler's back, I forgot his name, probably being disappointed by his welcome. Silly Nazi with bad English and a dumb grin. I really, really wish they wouldn't have killed so many people, or I would find them kinda funny. And then there's Neonazis. No revisionism needed, they're generally dumb as doorknobs. I could prove that to myself whenever I should forget by interacting with them. Ironically, that youtube video is blocked in Germany. So I can't speak to that. I doubt that title though. Germany did a lot of reflection and introspection, what does "from a German perspective" even mean? German filmmakers, German research, German witnesses -- there are lots of documentaries that consist of that, so what is "from a German perspective"? I'm not sure if I want to fire up a proxy to watch something that could turn out to be some kind of revisionistic BS.