5 ms·

Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business software?

by codeflo 14y ago

nspattak 14y ago
1) Do you really think that someone who can do "standard business tasks" on linux will be unable to do it on Windows? 2) Perhaps you have not heard or understood that people are dying of hunger or freezing from cold because the government has increased taxes on food, electricity, gas and oil/petrol. This is not the majority of course, but they are enough. 3) MS products are "standard business" in your business. That does not mean it is for every one nor that it should be. 4) Schools are not training centers for businesses. For god sake, public education is about other values, not creating what some businesses require.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  I don't think you've got #4 correct. If you look at the beginnings of mass public education, it corresponded to the needs of the industrial revolution to have a workforce that would be content doing repetitive tasks in an authoritarian environment for many hours a day. As I watch my kids go through school (my oldest started college this year), it was clear since 6th grade that education is about finding your path to a career. The only way that works is if the education people are receiving is of value to businesses. So, while it is certainly possible for an individual to pursue an education for its own sake, the educational system is a training center for businesses.
  - nspattak 14y ago
    There never was an industrial revolution in Greece. Yet (or what is more) there is a respectable number of Greeks around the world who started from the Greek educational system. Everyone (I hope...) is free to believe whatever they think right. However, in some respects, I feel sad about your kids. My belief is that education should shape values, ethics and other boring things.
- drcross 14y ago
  Open office and Libre office are still not on par with commercial offerings. Linux is it's own barrier to entry at the current time.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    1) So what? They're going to be blown away by Google Docs. Or tablets. Or wikis. Or whatever. But it's going to happen. It does not matter. 2) Why is that bad in the context of school?
  - makmanalp 14y ago
    Really? I urge you to try again. The majority of what people will use in a word processor is there. Why do you think google docs has caught on? Because your average office person doesn't need too many bells and whistles. In any case, even I am hard pressed to find things that libreoffice doesn't do these days.
- codeflo 14y ago
  1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools. 2) Holy cow, that's a loaded argument: "Use Linux or people will starve!!!" 3) Agreed. 4) Fully agreed.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    "1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools." This is actually a strong argument for the futility of windows and office-oriented teaching. Why bother if the skills willl become obsolete in four years?
  - nspattak 14y ago
    1) Which makes me curious, will all these people making decisions comparing MS solutions - other solutions will remember they had to pay this cost? 2) This is nowhere near what I said. You should better think before you speak, especially when it is about people dieing as a result of other people's decisions. YES, there is an increasing number of people committing suicide saying in their suicide notesthat they can not live being a burden and/or without dignity (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/22/greece-in-crisis-dramatic-increase-of-suicides-3124-people-in-2009-2012/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/22/greece-in-crisis...) because of a government/EU/bankers inflicted "crisis". YES, there are a lot of disabled people who are being left to die as a result of "reduced spending" (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/06/health-s-o-s-greece-kills-the-chronic-ill-alzheimers-and-kidney-patients/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/06/health-s-o-s-gre...) YES, since this winter it looks like there will be even more people with health problem because of other "unforeseen consequences" I would never believe could happen (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/27/athens-suffocates-as-greeks-burn-wood-and-chat-about-the-heating-problem/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/27/athens-suffocate...). In a situation where the government a)is taxing people living on 0 euro per year (through a system which claims that even if you declared 0e income you need at least 3000e to survive/exist so you will be taxed for 3000e income) b) cuts down on 280e/month pensions c) cuts down on health spending to the extend that hospitals ask patient's relatives to buy consumables d) people stopped turning on their heating because heating oil has been heavily taxed (4x in less than 10 years). There are already enough occasions of people died in fires (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/10/freezing-and-dying-in-greece-as-people-cannot-afford-heating-oil-natural-gas/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/10/freezing-and-dyi...) Then YES, a few millions paid to microsoft annoys me A LOT and I do not want to be paying for MS skilled workers.
hazov 14y ago
I have yet to find such a person that trains to use Excel or Windows.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
How many millions will the world lose because schools have been using windows xp/7 and now the world is going to migrate to tiled windows 8? The correct answer is: Nobody cares. You are bullshitting us. I mean, maybe it will matter. Maybe it won't. Maybe everyone will migrate to tablets. You don't have to teach narrow and expiring skills in school. Like "Windows XP" or "Microsoft Office". The half-life of such skills is smaller than the length of the full school course. And of course you should not rely on the teaching of narrow and expiring skills and lie to us about how someone is going to lose billions over narrow and expiring skills being teached in a different way.
- walshemj 14y ago
  Ufortunetly the average worker in the general work force isn't that computer savvy (HN readers are not a representative sample) it makes good sense to train them using the bog standard office software.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    School is not a place to "train" anyone to use any software. By the time they get out of school, there will be the next big thing around them. Thing ms dos -> windows, menus -> ribbon, classical -> tiled windows, pc -> tablet. It does not make sense and you should not base your decisions on it..
    - quasque 14y ago
      School is a great place to train people to do all sorts of things - software use included. It can be more useful to train students in commercial software if they are ubiquitous everywhere else. For example, in a graphic design course, one would teach students to use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. It would be detrimental to train them in GIMP and Inkscape, as aside from these software being substandard for serious use, hardly anyone uses them. Whereas showing someone how to use even the older CS2 version of Photoshop, these skills will transfer easily to the latest CS6.

Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business software?

by codeflo 14y ago

Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business software?

nspattak 14y ago

1) Do you really think that someone who can do "standard business tasks" on linux will be unable to do it on Windows? 2) Perhaps you have not heard or understood that people are dying of hunger or freezing from cold because the government has increased taxes on food, electricity, gas and oil/petrol. This is not the majority of course, but they are enough. 3) MS products are "standard business" in your business. That does not mean it is for every one nor that it should be. 4) Schools are not training centers for businesses. For god sake, public education is about other values, not creating what some businesses require.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
I don't think you've got #4 correct. If you look at the beginnings of mass public education, it corresponded to the needs of the industrial revolution to have a workforce that would be content doing repetitive tasks in an authoritarian environment for many hours a day. As I watch my kids go through school (my oldest started college this year), it was clear since 6th grade that education is about finding your path to a career. The only way that works is if the education people are receiving is of value to businesses. So, while it is certainly possible for an individual to pursue an education for its own sake, the educational system is a training center for businesses.
- nspattak 14y ago
  There never was an industrial revolution in Greece. Yet (or what is more) there is a respectable number of Greeks around the world who started from the Greek educational system. Everyone (I hope...) is free to believe whatever they think right. However, in some respects, I feel sad about your kids. My belief is that education should shape values, ethics and other boring things.
drcross 14y ago
Open office and Libre office are still not on par with commercial offerings. Linux is it's own barrier to entry at the current time.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  1) So what? They're going to be blown away by Google Docs. Or tablets. Or wikis. Or whatever. But it's going to happen. It does not matter. 2) Why is that bad in the context of school?
- makmanalp 14y ago
  Really? I urge you to try again. The majority of what people will use in a word processor is there. Why do you think google docs has caught on? Because your average office person doesn't need too many bells and whistles. In any case, even I am hard pressed to find things that libreoffice doesn't do these days.
codeflo 14y ago
1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools. 2) Holy cow, that's a loaded argument: "Use Linux or people will starve!!!" 3) Agreed. 4) Fully agreed.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  "1) Yes. People who were proficient in Office 2003 needed special training to use Office 2007. There's a real cost to switching tools." This is actually a strong argument for the futility of windows and office-oriented teaching. Why bother if the skills willl become obsolete in four years?
- nspattak 14y ago
  1) Which makes me curious, will all these people making decisions comparing MS solutions - other solutions will remember they had to pay this cost? 2) This is nowhere near what I said. You should better think before you speak, especially when it is about people dieing as a result of other people's decisions. YES, there is an increasing number of people committing suicide saying in their suicide notesthat they can not live being a burden and/or without dignity (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/22/greece-in-crisis-dramatic-increase-of-suicides-3124-people-in-2009-2012/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/22/greece-in-crisis...) because of a government/EU/bankers inflicted "crisis". YES, there are a lot of disabled people who are being left to die as a result of "reduced spending" (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/06/health-s-o-s-greece-kills-the-chronic-ill-alzheimers-and-kidney-patients/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/11/06/health-s-o-s-gre...) YES, since this winter it looks like there will be even more people with health problem because of other "unforeseen consequences" I would never believe could happen (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/27/athens-suffocates-as-greeks-burn-wood-and-chat-about-the-heating-problem/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/27/athens-suffocate...). In a situation where the government a)is taxing people living on 0 euro per year (through a system which claims that even if you declared 0e income you need at least 3000e to survive/exist so you will be taxed for 3000e income) b) cuts down on 280e/month pensions c) cuts down on health spending to the extend that hospitals ask patient's relatives to buy consumables d) people stopped turning on their heating because heating oil has been heavily taxed (4x in less than 10 years). There are already enough occasions of people died in fires (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/10/freezing-and-dying-in-greece-as-people-cannot-afford-heating-oil-natural-gas/ http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/10/freezing-and-dyi...) Then YES, a few millions paid to microsoft annoys me A LOT and I do not want to be paying for MS skilled workers.

hazov 14y ago

I have yet to find such a person that trains to use Excel or Windows.

guard-of-terra 14y ago

How many millions will the world lose because schools have been using windows xp/7 and now the world is going to migrate to tiled windows 8? The correct answer is: Nobody cares. You are bullshitting us. I mean, maybe it will matter. Maybe it won't. Maybe everyone will migrate to tablets. You don't have to teach narrow and expiring skills in school. Like "Windows XP" or "Microsoft Office". The half-life of such skills is smaller than the length of the full school course. And of course you should not rely on the teaching of narrow and expiring skills and lie to us about how someone is going to lose billions over narrow and expiring skills being teached in a different way.

walshemj 14y ago
Ufortunetly the average worker in the general work force isn't that computer savvy (HN readers are not a representative sample) it makes good sense to train them using the bog standard office software.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  School is not a place to "train" anyone to use any software. By the time they get out of school, there will be the next big thing around them. Thing ms dos -> windows, menus -> ribbon, classical -> tiled windows, pc -> tablet. It does not make sense and you should not base your decisions on it..
  - quasque 14y ago
    School is a great place to train people to do all sorts of things - software use included. It can be more useful to train students in commercial software if they are ubiquitous everywhere else. For example, in a graphic design course, one would teach students to use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc. It would be detrimental to train them in GIMP and Inkscape, as aside from these software being substandard for serious use, hardly anyone uses them. Whereas showing someone how to use even the older CS2 version of Photoshop, these skills will transfer easily to the latest CS6.