7 ms·

Open source groups warn Greece will waste millions on school software

56 points by Tsiolkovsky 14y ago

joeycfan 14y ago
'Waste millions' is practically their motto - check how they sold 4 a340s... http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-crisis http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-cr...
ignaciogiri 14y ago
I do not agree with the word 'waste'.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Yes, I thought that the word 'waste' was inappropriate as well. Microsoft systems will work fine, but, in the UK at least, we pay an annual license fee for using their software. The details are (notoriously) unclear but educational licensing is significantly cheaper than business/enterprise costs. At the client end, my students are already using a variety of devices of their own with non-Microsoft interfaces. I have no doubt of their ability to cope with client PCs that had (say) Gnome Shell or Unity running on them, certainly no issues with XFCE4 or one of the Gnome 3 'remixed' interfaces. We already use RDP to access more exotic software such as Adobe/Autocad &c. The musicians and media people have their Macs for Logic and Final Cut. As always it comes down to the business systems, and daring to be the first institution to change. If Greece is still at the stage of putting building-wide wifi into their schools, well, it strikes me that there is an opportunity to try a different approach possibly with lower total cost.
  - duncan_bayne 14y ago
    If there are two equivalent systems, where one costs and the other is gratis then yes, money spent on the former is waste. In this case though they aren't even equivalent ;)
    - sbuk 14y ago
      Duncan, suggesting that it's that simple is extremely naive. OSS has costs too. I have no doubt that OSS would be cheaper, but it would be nice to see real world cost comparisons, and not the usual zealotry from the GPL lot.
      - duncan_bayne 14y ago
        Both solutions will obviously have implementation and maintenance costs. Given that a free solution exists, however, anything spent over and above those costs - e.g. on licensing - is wasted.
        sbuk 14y ago
        It's not that black and white. The re-training costs alone could prove to be significantly more than the cost of a license. So no, it's not "wasted".
        duncan_bayne 14y ago
        Please re-read my comment. I acknowledge that both solutions have implementation and maintenance costs - which include the cost of re-training. Anything over and above that _is_ waste. (FWIW, I dislike the term 'training'. Someone else said this first, but I agree: training is what you do to dogs, education is what you provide people.)
        sbuk 14y ago
        I dislike the term 'waste' when referring to software licensing over 'free' software. As I said, it's not as simple as you are suggesting. I pointer out training (semantically, it is training), but there are other costs and factors to consider. I'm not suggesting for one minute that OSS is a bad choice, just that it is not necessarily the most cost effective in short to medium term.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  Those are money packed in a box and send to USA. Open source would have caused Greece to spend a part of that money inside the country, employing local specialists.
  - walshemj 14y ago
    yes but the us subsidiary would probably pay more tax to the govenment.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      Still a fraction of the amount sent abroad. Free software allows all the money to stay in Greece.
  - quasque 14y ago
    They will need to hire (or continue to hire) local specialists to install and maintain the software though. I would not be surprised if the wage cost is higher than the cost of the software.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      But those money remain in the country and make its economy feel better. Increase consumer spendings and yada yada. Money that you ship off (even after tax) make it worse.
      - quasque 14y ago
        Sorry I misworded my comment, I meant that local specialists will be needed for commercial software too, to install and maintain it.
        guard-of-terra 14y ago
        If the commercial software needs as much specialists to support, what's the point anyway? The whole idea of commercial software is outsourcing work instead of doing everything in-house.
dalai 14y ago
Actually it seems that it wasn't a request for tenders but a request for public comments on a tender plan. Along with Greeklug, Microsoft Hellas and other companies also submitted comments. Funnily enough, Microsoft Hellas feels that the nature of the proposed tender favors open source solutions and eliminates MS Office from the competition.
codeflo 14y ago
Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business software?
- nspattak 14y ago
  1) Do you really think that someone who can do "standard business tasks" on linux will be unable to do it on Windows? 2) Perhaps you have not heard or understood that people are dying of hunger or freezing from cold because the government has increased taxes on food, electricity, gas and oil/petrol. This is not the majority of course, but they are enough. 3) MS products are "standard business" in your business. That does not mean it is for every one nor that it should be. 4) Schools are not training centers for businesses. For god sake, public education is about other values, not creating what some businesses require.
  - SoftwareMaven 14y ago
    I don't think you've got #4 correct. If you look at the beginnings of mass public education, it corresponded to the needs of the industrial revolution to have a workforce that would be content doing repetitive tasks in an authoritarian environment for many hours a day. As I watch my kids go through school (my oldest started college this year), it was clear since 6th grade that education is about finding your path to a career. The only way that works is if the education people are receiving is of value to businesses. So, while it is certainly possible for an individual to pursue an education for its own sake, the educational system is a training center for businesses.
    - nspattak 14y ago
      There never was an industrial revolution in Greece. Yet (or what is more) there is a respectable number of Greeks around the world who started from the Greek educational system. Everyone (I hope...) is free to believe whatever they think right. However, in some respects, I feel sad about your kids. My belief is that education should shape values, ethics and other boring things.
  - 14y ago
reinhardt 14y ago
"seeking suppliers of 26,400 laptops, 1760 servers and 1760 wifi access routers". Laptops? Seriously? Is the premium for buying laptops instead of desktops for school computers really justified, especially under the dire economic situation?
- edtechdev 14y ago
  Yes, they are given to students, not set up in a static computer lab. It's called 1-to-1 computing, and it can be more effective for learning than only giving very limited access to a computer lab. I hope they budgeted for training and professional development though, otherwise it will not be as effective: http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-good-as-their-teachers/ http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-go...
mtgx 14y ago
A mega-list of open source software (for the skeptics): http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-software-the-mega-list-1.html http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-software-t... By the way, there's also a petition to promote open source software in American schoos, too: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-free-software-our-schools-libre-office-gimp-gnu-cash-and-other-gpl-software-which-cost/T1xGw1fZ https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-free-s...
carlesfe 14y ago
Open source/Free software should be used by governments not because it's gratis, but rather because it can be audited and modified by public servants. Implementing a free solution costs money in training, deployment, etc. But I'd rather pay that price than having a company lock my government data.
- quasque 14y ago
  Microsoft does make its source code available under the "Government Security Program", so a similar level of auditing is possible. I don't quite understand the problem with governments not being able to modify proprietary source code though - where is the practical disadvantage?
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    Proprietary software comes as a huge blob of compiled code. Most often you can't just throw any part of that code away - it will "void the warranty". And you certainly can't check all the code in that blob. With open source, you can customize your systems to a great extent. You also employ local specialists to do so. And you can make minimal systems for critical applications. With predictable behavior. Ones that don't message box or screen saver on you.
    - quasque 14y ago
      I do understand that there are useful applications for open source software (I've used it myself for a few projects), but in the context of providing laptops for students and servers for running the school IT infrastructure there really does not seem to be any huge advantage. What possible customisations would be required to the core source code of Microsoft's Windows and Office to have them work more effectively in an educational environment?
      - guard-of-terra 14y ago
        The grandparent was arguing about governments in general, not just education.
quasque 14y ago
A major advantage of them using Microsoft Windows and Office instead of the open source alternatives, is the high quality Greek internationalisation of the software. The same can not be said of the open source offerings.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  "The same can not be said of the open source offerings" [citation needed]
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Paying Greek translators to do the job (if there is a job to do) would probably be cheaper than the licencing costs alone.
  - quasque 14y ago
    Here is one example of inferior Greek internationalisation: http://www.openoffice.org/el/ http://www.openoffice.org/el/ "We need your help to complete the translation of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 into Greek! "This note is in English because we have no one to translate it into your language. The links on the page will help you download and install OpenOffice.org 3.3.0, an older version of our product. It is missing many bug fixes, performance enhancements and even new features that are in Apache OpenOffice 3.4. "We would be happy to make Apache OpenOffice 3.4 available in Greek, but we need help completing the translation of the user interface." Whereas the latest version of Microsoft Office has a full and comprehensive Greek translation as standard, upon release, done by professionals.
- alexchamberlain 14y ago
  If true, that would change very quickly. The Open Source software movement would get behind any country that decided they were going to use it exclusively.
rbanffy 14y ago
> "The specification is a copy of the proprietary vendor's e-mail and office software." I wonder who could have written the spec.

56 points by Tsiolkovsky 14y ago

'Waste millions' is practically their motto - check how they sold 4 a340s... http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-crisis http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-cr...

ignaciogiri 14y ago

I do not agree with the word 'waste'.

keithpeter 14y ago
Yes, I thought that the word 'waste' was inappropriate as well. Microsoft systems will work fine, but, in the UK at least, we pay an annual license fee for using their software. The details are (notoriously) unclear but educational licensing is significantly cheaper than business/enterprise costs. At the client end, my students are already using a variety of devices of their own with non-Microsoft interfaces. I have no doubt of their ability to cope with client PCs that had (say) Gnome Shell or Unity running on them, certainly no issues with XFCE4 or one of the Gnome 3 'remixed' interfaces. We already use RDP to access more exotic software such as Adobe/Autocad &c. The musicians and media people have their Macs for Logic and Final Cut. As always it comes down to the business systems, and daring to be the first institution to change. If Greece is still at the stage of putting building-wide wifi into their schools, well, it strikes me that there is an opportunity to try a different approach possibly with lower total cost.
- duncan_bayne 14y ago
  If there are two equivalent systems, where one costs and the other is gratis then yes, money spent on the former is waste. In this case though they aren't even equivalent ;)
  - sbuk 14y ago
    Duncan, suggesting that it's that simple is extremely naive. OSS has costs too. I have no doubt that OSS would be cheaper, but it would be nice to see real world cost comparisons, and not the usual zealotry from the GPL lot.
    - duncan_bayne 14y ago
      Both solutions will obviously have implementation and maintenance costs. Given that a free solution exists, however, anything spent over and above those costs - e.g. on licensing - is wasted.
      - sbuk 14y ago
        It's not that black and white. The re-training costs alone could prove to be significantly more than the cost of a license. So no, it's not "wasted".
        duncan_bayne 14y ago
        Please re-read my comment. I acknowledge that both solutions have implementation and maintenance costs - which include the cost of re-training. Anything over and above that _is_ waste. (FWIW, I dislike the term 'training'. Someone else said this first, but I agree: training is what you do to dogs, education is what you provide people.)
        sbuk 14y ago
        I dislike the term 'waste' when referring to software licensing over 'free' software. As I said, it's not as simple as you are suggesting. I pointer out training (semantically, it is training), but there are other costs and factors to consider. I'm not suggesting for one minute that OSS is a bad choice, just that it is not necessarily the most cost effective in short to medium term.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
Those are money packed in a box and send to USA. Open source would have caused Greece to spend a part of that money inside the country, employing local specialists.
- walshemj 14y ago
  yes but the us subsidiary would probably pay more tax to the govenment.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Still a fraction of the amount sent abroad. Free software allows all the money to stay in Greece.
- quasque 14y ago
  They will need to hire (or continue to hire) local specialists to install and maintain the software though. I would not be surprised if the wage cost is higher than the cost of the software.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    But those money remain in the country and make its economy feel better. Increase consumer spendings and yada yada. Money that you ship off (even after tax) make it worse.
    - quasque 14y ago
      Sorry I misworded my comment, I meant that local specialists will be needed for commercial software too, to install and maintain it.
      - guard-of-terra 14y ago
        If the commercial software needs as much specialists to support, what's the point anyway? The whole idea of commercial software is outsourcing work instead of doing everything in-house.

dalai 14y ago

Actually it seems that it wasn't a request for tenders but a request for public comments on a tender plan. Along with Greeklug, Microsoft Hellas and other companies also submitted comments. Funnily enough, Microsoft Hellas feels that the nature of the proposed tender favors open source solutions and eliminates MS Office from the competition.

codeflo 14y ago

Tongue in cheek: How many millions of lost GDP will it cost Greece, a few years down the line, to have a workforce not trained in standard business software?

nspattak 14y ago
1) Do you really think that someone who can do "standard business tasks" on linux will be unable to do it on Windows? 2) Perhaps you have not heard or understood that people are dying of hunger or freezing from cold because the government has increased taxes on food, electricity, gas and oil/petrol. This is not the majority of course, but they are enough. 3) MS products are "standard business" in your business. That does not mean it is for every one nor that it should be. 4) Schools are not training centers for businesses. For god sake, public education is about other values, not creating what some businesses require.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  I don't think you've got #4 correct. If you look at the beginnings of mass public education, it corresponded to the needs of the industrial revolution to have a workforce that would be content doing repetitive tasks in an authoritarian environment for many hours a day. As I watch my kids go through school (my oldest started college this year), it was clear since 6th grade that education is about finding your path to a career. The only way that works is if the education people are receiving is of value to businesses. So, while it is certainly possible for an individual to pursue an education for its own sake, the educational system is a training center for businesses.
  - nspattak 14y ago
    There never was an industrial revolution in Greece. Yet (or what is more) there is a respectable number of Greeks around the world who started from the Greek educational system. Everyone (I hope...) is free to believe whatever they think right. However, in some respects, I feel sad about your kids. My belief is that education should shape values, ethics and other boring things.
- 14y ago

reinhardt 14y ago

"seeking suppliers of 26,400 laptops, 1760 servers and 1760 wifi access routers". Laptops? Seriously? Is the premium for buying laptops instead of desktops for school computers really justified, especially under the dire economic situation?

edtechdev 14y ago
Yes, they are given to students, not set up in a static computer lab. It's called 1-to-1 computing, and it can be more effective for learning than only giving very limited access to a computer lab. I hope they budgeted for training and professional development though, otherwise it will not be as effective: http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-good-as-their-teachers/ http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/02/16/11-programs-only-as-go...

mtgx 14y ago

A mega-list of open source software (for the skeptics): http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-software-the-mega-list-1.html http://www.datamation.com/open-source/open-source-software-t... By the way, there's also a petition to promote open source software in American schoos, too: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-free-software-our-schools-libre-office-gimp-gnu-cash-and-other-gpl-software-which-cost/T1xGw1fZ https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/promote-use-free-s...

carlesfe 14y ago

Open source/Free software should be used by governments not because it's gratis, but rather because it can be audited and modified by public servants. Implementing a free solution costs money in training, deployment, etc. But I'd rather pay that price than having a company lock my government data.

quasque 14y ago
Microsoft does make its source code available under the "Government Security Program", so a similar level of auditing is possible. I don't quite understand the problem with governments not being able to modify proprietary source code though - where is the practical disadvantage?
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  Proprietary software comes as a huge blob of compiled code. Most often you can't just throw any part of that code away - it will "void the warranty". And you certainly can't check all the code in that blob. With open source, you can customize your systems to a great extent. You also employ local specialists to do so. And you can make minimal systems for critical applications. With predictable behavior. Ones that don't message box or screen saver on you.
  - quasque 14y ago
    I do understand that there are useful applications for open source software (I've used it myself for a few projects), but in the context of providing laptops for students and servers for running the school IT infrastructure there really does not seem to be any huge advantage. What possible customisations would be required to the core source code of Microsoft's Windows and Office to have them work more effectively in an educational environment?
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      The grandparent was arguing about governments in general, not just education.

quasque 14y ago

A major advantage of them using Microsoft Windows and Office instead of the open source alternatives, is the high quality Greek internationalisation of the software. The same can not be said of the open source offerings.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
"The same can not be said of the open source offerings" [citation needed]
- rbanffy 14y ago
  Paying Greek translators to do the job (if there is a job to do) would probably be cheaper than the licencing costs alone.
- quasque 14y ago
  Here is one example of inferior Greek internationalisation: http://www.openoffice.org/el/ http://www.openoffice.org/el/ "We need your help to complete the translation of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 into Greek! "This note is in English because we have no one to translate it into your language. The links on the page will help you download and install OpenOffice.org 3.3.0, an older version of our product. It is missing many bug fixes, performance enhancements and even new features that are in Apache OpenOffice 3.4. "We would be happy to make Apache OpenOffice 3.4 available in Greek, but we need help completing the translation of the user interface." Whereas the latest version of Microsoft Office has a full and comprehensive Greek translation as standard, upon release, done by professionals.
alexchamberlain 14y ago
If true, that would change very quickly. The Open Source software movement would get behind any country that decided they were going to use it exclusively.

rbanffy 14y ago

> "The specification is a copy of the proprietary vendor's e-mail and office software." I wonder who could have written the spec.