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They (big bad men) gave you trouble for seemingly valid difference in opinions, deal with it. And please don't imply that the HN has any hand in fostering miso

by timmm 14y ago

They (big bad men) gave you trouble for seemingly valid difference in opinions, deal with it. And please don't imply that the HN has any hand in fostering misogyny or sexism because it's a completely false characterization of the community at large. In fact if you haven't picked up on it yet we're actually one of the more "progressive" and or liberal industries. But that doesn't mean we're going to hold you to any lesser standard or treat you better because your a girl either. By the way quitting and blaming others in a rant was probably the wrong decision on your part.

venantius 14y ago
At no point does she explicitly cite HN. The post is directed to all "hackers."
- timmm 14y ago
  Hence my use of the word imply. As in 'implicit' ... you know - the opposite of 'explicit'. I also believe she changed the title.
  - venantius 14y ago
    I don't think there's anything implicitly linking the people in her article to HN, either. We don't have a monopoly on the word "hacker," after all.
    - rhizome 14y ago
      In fact, quite the opposite. HN's use of the word is the tag-along.
67726e 14y ago
Admittedly, the post is very ranty, but that doesn't take away from the the issue itself. Picking apart the person behind the argument does not lessen the issue either. By doing so, you are only trying to detract from the seriousness of the issue via a borderline ad hominem response. Finally, at no point in the post did Asher Wolf mention Hacker News, it was directed at the greater hacker community.
lukev 14y ago
I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN. By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys. I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her post and your response, it is quite obvious that there is a genuine problem here, and that problem is you and people like you.
- etherael 14y ago
  How can you be so certain that her interpretation, or your interpretation, of what is happening is actually in line with reality? One cannot simply observe something and immediately react emotionally and simultaneously imagine that they've just completely nailed the core of the issue with complete accuracy and no misunderstanding has taken place whatsoever. From my subjective perspective for example the OP you're responding to used the phrase "big bad men" to sum up the article case that the problem is sexism / men / external rather than her lack of understanding / expectations of unearned respect / internal. It's up for argument which one of these positions is valid, but I just don't grasp how people can immediately jump for the second one as if it were indisputable truth?
  - lukev 14y ago
    Of course we can't know the true motivation of any of the parties involved. But as big a problem as this has obviously become, I'd rather err on the side of calling out apparent sexism when I see it rather than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and giving sexists the impression that this shit is ok. And if I'm wrong, oh well. Worst case, some people might stop to think about the language they use and how it affects others.
    - etherael 14y ago
      Worst case; in a field where logic is paramount, emotion trumping it on a political correctness card starts to creep into the culture, poisoning everything it touches and slowly bleeding it into just another mostly political, messy, emotional human endeavour. Honestly, if that's what it takes for women to feel accepted in this field I would prefer they were not. I sincerely don't believe that to be the case though, it's just convenient for sideline histrionics to label their cause with something more mainstream like gender equality in order to advance their agenda.
progressively 14y ago
"Progressive liberal" techies unfortunately can still be sexist

by timmm 14y ago

venantius 14y ago

At no point does she explicitly cite HN. The post is directed to all "hackers."

timmm 14y ago
Hence my use of the word imply. As in 'implicit' ... you know - the opposite of 'explicit'. I also believe she changed the title.
- venantius 14y ago
  I don't think there's anything implicitly linking the people in her article to HN, either. We don't have a monopoly on the word "hacker," after all.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    In fact, quite the opposite. HN's use of the word is the tag-along.

67726e 14y ago

Admittedly, the post is very ranty, but that doesn't take away from the the issue itself. Picking apart the person behind the argument does not lessen the issue either. By doing so, you are only trying to detract from the seriousness of the issue via a borderline ad hominem response. Finally, at no point in the post did Asher Wolf mention Hacker News, it was directed at the greater hacker community.

lukev 14y ago

I think you just proved her point - your tone is itself evidence that sexism is a problem on sites like HN. By using the phrase "big bad men" you are engaging in precisely the sort of gender-oriented down-talking that she is complaining about. You are not just criticizing her, you are implying that she's an emotional woman who can't play with the big boys. I don't know anything about the author, but just reading her post and your response, it is quite obvious that there is a genuine problem here, and that problem is you and people like you.

etherael 14y ago
How can you be so certain that her interpretation, or your interpretation, of what is happening is actually in line with reality? One cannot simply observe something and immediately react emotionally and simultaneously imagine that they've just completely nailed the core of the issue with complete accuracy and no misunderstanding has taken place whatsoever. From my subjective perspective for example the OP you're responding to used the phrase "big bad men" to sum up the article case that the problem is sexism / men / external rather than her lack of understanding / expectations of unearned respect / internal. It's up for argument which one of these positions is valid, but I just don't grasp how people can immediately jump for the second one as if it were indisputable truth?
- lukev 14y ago
  Of course we can't know the true motivation of any of the parties involved. But as big a problem as this has obviously become, I'd rather err on the side of calling out apparent sexism when I see it rather than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and giving sexists the impression that this shit is ok. And if I'm wrong, oh well. Worst case, some people might stop to think about the language they use and how it affects others.
  - etherael 14y ago
    Worst case; in a field where logic is paramount, emotion trumping it on a political correctness card starts to creep into the culture, poisoning everything it touches and slowly bleeding it into just another mostly political, messy, emotional human endeavour. Honestly, if that's what it takes for women to feel accepted in this field I would prefer they were not. I sincerely don't believe that to be the case though, it's just convenient for sideline histrionics to label their cause with something more mainstream like gender equality in order to advance their agenda.

progressively 14y ago

"Progressive liberal" techies unfortunately can still be sexist