4 ms·

Wufoo seem to have rooted themselves in Tampa on $118k, but they're an extreme case. How would the evolution of Wufoo differ if they had be in the valley inste

by prakash 18y ago

Wufoo seem to have rooted themselves in Tampa on $118k, but they're an extreme case. How would the evolution of Wufoo differ if they had be in the valley instead of Tampa?

pg 18y ago
They may actually have been better off in Tampa. They've ended up slowly and gradually creating something really excellent, and that suits their personalities very well. But they are unusual people (in a good way).
- cperciva 18y ago
  Can you elaborate on this? It sounds very similar to something I was saying about tarsnap recently -- that if I had been in San Francisco, I'd have launched tarsnap twice as fast and it would be half as good as a result; and that being in Vancouver gave me enough distance from the startup world that I could avoid getting carried away with hype -- but I might be reading more into your comment than is really there.
  - herdrick 18y ago
    I think by the time the Wufooers moved back to Tampa they knew more about doing a startup than you do. That's partly due to their YC experience and partly because they really know and obsess about design and user experience. (There's a lot of overlap there.) Spending time around people in Silicon Valley who talk about those two things a lot would help you in that department. And promotion. And marketing. Maybe you shouldn't listen to me since I've recently failed. But please do change some things you are doing, at least in the design area. I'd like to see you do well.
    - herdrick 18y ago
      I know I'm judging your private beta product by its public face. But statements like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 are also worrisome. UI and promotion aren't easy, nor 'easy'. They are hard and a lot of work. (Boy, telling a Putnam winner he doesn't know enough about something makes you choose your words carefully. And then it makes you wonder why you don't always do that.)
      - cperciva 18y ago
        your private beta product Tarsnap is in public beta right now, actually -- you can go to the website, create an account, deposit some money, and start backing up your data within the next five minutes. :-) statements like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 are also worrisome. UI and promotion aren't easy, nor 'easy'. They are hard and a lot of work. If you read that link carefully, you'll note that I didn't say anything about promotion being easy -- and in any case, the scare quotes in "that's all "easy" stuff" should have been a tip-off that I didn't really mean that everything I mentioned would be easy. I was effecting the mathematician's habit of referring to any solved problem as "trivial" -- for all that there's a lot of work involved in creating a GUI, porting software to Windows, et cetera, those are all things which people have done in the past, whereas the core functionality of tarsnap -- secure snapshotted online backup -- required solving entirely new problems.
        herdrick 18y ago
        Oh no, getting a good user interface/experience for tarsnap is a new problem. Only if tarsnap were simply an better implementation of an existing utility would that not be true, and only then if you were happy with that utility's current interface.
        herdrick 18y ago
        I have wondered if I need an OS X backup. I'll check it out, thanks.
  - pg 18y ago
    First, they're working in a field most people overlook, where one can therefore grow slowly and gradually. Second, they're an extraordinarily tight and self-sufficient group. Most startups like to be around other startups, but the Wufoos don't seem to need it.
    - spc476 18y ago
      How much do you think that taxes and living expenses play into this? I know that both San Fran and Boston have some of the highest living expenses in the country, and while living in Florida isn't cheap, I would be surprised to find Tampa to be just as expensive (Miami, sure, but Tampa?). Also, the tax rates for both personal and corporations are higher in CA and MA than in FL (and FL doesn't have a state income tax), and I can see the higher regulatory costs in CA and MA being highly unattractive. This leads into a question I have: Why did Silicon Valley become this computer Mecca? Why not Boston? My guess is that the tax and regulations up through the late 60s/early 70s favored California (coupled with the nice weather) and what you are now seeing (as CA collapses into debt) is merely inertia. If I had to pick an area for another Silicon Valley to arise, it would be Austin.
      - pg 18y ago
        I think taxes and the cost of living make zero difference, except possibly in NYC. Renting in Silicon Valley is not that expensive. It's a very involved question why Silicon Valley has pulled ahead of Boston. People write whole books about it. I think the elaborate theories are probably mistaken, and that it's mostly due to a combination of historical accidents (Shockley Semiconductor specifically) and the quality of life in the Bay Area.
        rsheridan6 18y ago
        >I think taxes and the cost of living make zero difference, except possibly in NYC. Interesting. I wonder how much the state of California could get away with soaking Silicon Valley without killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

by prakash 18y ago

Wufoo seem to have rooted themselves in Tampa on $118k, but they're an extreme case. How would the evolution of Wufoo differ if they had be in the valley instead of Tampa?

pg 18y ago

They may actually have been better off in Tampa. They've ended up slowly and gradually creating something really excellent, and that suits their personalities very well. But they are unusual people (in a good way).

cperciva 18y ago
Can you elaborate on this? It sounds very similar to something I was saying about tarsnap recently -- that if I had been in San Francisco, I'd have launched tarsnap twice as fast and it would be half as good as a result; and that being in Vancouver gave me enough distance from the startup world that I could avoid getting carried away with hype -- but I might be reading more into your comment than is really there.
- herdrick 18y ago
  I think by the time the Wufooers moved back to Tampa they knew more about doing a startup than you do. That's partly due to their YC experience and partly because they really know and obsess about design and user experience. (There's a lot of overlap there.) Spending time around people in Silicon Valley who talk about those two things a lot would help you in that department. And promotion. And marketing. Maybe you shouldn't listen to me since I've recently failed. But please do change some things you are doing, at least in the design area. I'd like to see you do well.
  - herdrick 18y ago
    I know I'm judging your private beta product by its public face. But statements like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 are also worrisome. UI and promotion aren't easy, nor 'easy'. They are hard and a lot of work. (Boy, telling a Putnam winner he doesn't know enough about something makes you choose your words carefully. And then it makes you wonder why you don't always do that.)
    - cperciva 18y ago
      your private beta product Tarsnap is in public beta right now, actually -- you can go to the website, create an account, deposit some money, and start backing up your data within the next five minutes. :-) statements like this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=360561 are also worrisome. UI and promotion aren't easy, nor 'easy'. They are hard and a lot of work. If you read that link carefully, you'll note that I didn't say anything about promotion being easy -- and in any case, the scare quotes in "that's all "easy" stuff" should have been a tip-off that I didn't really mean that everything I mentioned would be easy. I was effecting the mathematician's habit of referring to any solved problem as "trivial" -- for all that there's a lot of work involved in creating a GUI, porting software to Windows, et cetera, those are all things which people have done in the past, whereas the core functionality of tarsnap -- secure snapshotted online backup -- required solving entirely new problems.
      - herdrick 18y ago
        Oh no, getting a good user interface/experience for tarsnap is a new problem. Only if tarsnap were simply an better implementation of an existing utility would that not be true, and only then if you were happy with that utility's current interface.
      - herdrick 18y ago
        I have wondered if I need an OS X backup. I'll check it out, thanks.
- pg 18y ago
  First, they're working in a field most people overlook, where one can therefore grow slowly and gradually. Second, they're an extraordinarily tight and self-sufficient group. Most startups like to be around other startups, but the Wufoos don't seem to need it.
  - spc476 18y ago
    How much do you think that taxes and living expenses play into this? I know that both San Fran and Boston have some of the highest living expenses in the country, and while living in Florida isn't cheap, I would be surprised to find Tampa to be just as expensive (Miami, sure, but Tampa?). Also, the tax rates for both personal and corporations are higher in CA and MA than in FL (and FL doesn't have a state income tax), and I can see the higher regulatory costs in CA and MA being highly unattractive. This leads into a question I have: Why did Silicon Valley become this computer Mecca? Why not Boston? My guess is that the tax and regulations up through the late 60s/early 70s favored California (coupled with the nice weather) and what you are now seeing (as CA collapses into debt) is merely inertia. If I had to pick an area for another Silicon Valley to arise, it would be Austin.
    - pg 18y ago
      I think taxes and the cost of living make zero difference, except possibly in NYC. Renting in Silicon Valley is not that expensive. It's a very involved question why Silicon Valley has pulled ahead of Boston. People write whole books about it. I think the elaborate theories are probably mistaken, and that it's mostly due to a combination of historical accidents (Shockley Semiconductor specifically) and the quality of life in the Bay Area.
      - rsheridan6 18y ago
        >I think taxes and the cost of living make zero difference, except possibly in NYC. Interesting. I wonder how much the state of California could get away with soaking Silicon Valley without killing the goose that laid the golden egg.