8 ms·

God I'd hate this. Restaurants are places of relaxation, company, discovery, beautiful foods. I want to order something which sounds good and then see whether

God I'd hate this. Restaurants are places of relaxation, company, discovery, beautiful foods. I want to order something which sounds good and then see whether it is - I want it to come to me as a surprise - "Oh Tuscan Rabbit? I wonder how the chef will do it confit... Oh! Wow, let's try this then!" It's not about efficiency, it's about atmosphere. I don't want a glowing screen anywhere near my dining table. I don't want anything which helps me order "what I had last time". I don't want them to ask me about the last time I was here 3 years ago either. Can we invent and work on technology which adds to the beauty and experience of life next please? Either that or get the brain in a jar thing working.

ezran 14y ago
I agree. Intrusive LCD panels at the table, removal from human interaction, horrid restaurant-chosen hierarchies of categories to wade through, etc... With menus, everybody gets one and can peruse as they see fit, rather than a little shared computer. With a waiter/waitress you can talk through special options or dealing with split bills and anything like that. And don't get me started on social and tracking -- I can't think of anything that would more quickly destroy my interest in a restaurant than having to log in with twitter or facebook. (And believe me, if the restaurant posted/tweeted on my friend's behalf, they would lose my business.)
- greggman 14y ago
  The right tool for the job. If I'm going on a date I want a chef. If I'm going to a cheap izakaya in tokyo with 4-12 friends for cheap drinks and snacks I'm perfectly happy with color LCD ordering touch screens which they've had here since 2005. There's a time and place for both. Being able to sit and eat with a group of friends and not have a waiter interrupt your conversation can be a plus
  - davemc500hats 14y ago
    >> "Being able to sit and eat with a group of friends and not have a waiter interrupt your conversation can be a plus" but that's exactly my point. without useful methods of communication with waiters, they will likely interrupt, and/or you will be kept waiting. i'm flabbergasted by the number of people who seem to interpret efficient communication as mutually exclusive from a high-end restaurant or good customer service. they aren't at all mutually exclusive, and in fact they are exactly in pursuit of same goal.
    - ThadCloudDine 14y ago
      Here's a more concrete example of how efficient communication would improve your dining experience. (Disclaimer: The startup I founded, Cloud Dine Systems, does this, so take this with a bit of salt since I'm a bit biased.) You want a refill of your coffee during the breakfast rush. You can either try to flag down one of the wait staff or send a text to the restaurant with "#Table12 can you refill my coffee?" The wait staff gets the text and delivers you a coffee refill. Notice, you sent off the asynchronous message and then continue talking with your friends instead of pausing the conversation to flag down staff. It translates to better service and a better dining experience because the timing matches your needs. Similar examples follow for anything you would flag a waiter down for. IMHO, one of the more pressing problems is efficient communication within the restaurant. Here's where the gains from better communication are the greatest. But that's a whole different conversation.
malachismith 14y ago
Thank you so much for saying this. It perfectly captures my feelings about this piece - and also my frustration for what eating out has become. I actually had some asshat try to take pictures of the meal I was eating with his iPhone the other day.
fudged71 14y ago
Yes, I agree. Efficiency is not what I want from a restaurant. Waiting for my order is one of those rare times to spend time with someone, discuss things, and absorb the restaurant atmosphere. A good restaurant menu doesn't list all ingredients and recipes, presentations and pictures. I want that anticipation, that wonder, and that trust in the chef. When I receive my food I like to be surprised; to discovery and explore a dish, even if it's something I've had before. If the restaurant leaves a lasting impression on me, in terms of atmosphere, service, and taste, then I won't need a reminder of what I had last time. I don't need details/pictures of dishes because I already have that trust in the chef. And in terms of service, a good restaurant/waiter will recommend something for me, or know what I have ordered in the past. It's part of the social experience of dining, having an actual discussion with the people who know the food. Dave seems to be suggesting the exact opposite of what I would want in a quality restaurant experience. But I'm sure his opinion is different with children in the mix. It's really interesting how diverse the dining experience can be, and how both class and social groups can change your view of it.
- davemc500hats 14y ago
  >> "Efficiency is not what I want from a restaurant." umm, pretty sure that there IS a very large market of people who DO want efficiency as one of the attributes of restaurant customer service, even at the absolute high-end. in fact, some might say high-end restaurants excel at efficiency and customer service, and technology to bring this to the masses (whether at McD's or at French Laundry) would be welcomed by all. efficiency != low quality experience; in fact quite the contrary.
  - rdl 14y ago
    If you want an example of an efficient upper-middle range restaurant: Cheesecake Factory. So efficient that someone used it as an example of how to fix the healthcare industry. They use a lot of science/tech, although not all computers. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_...
    - 14y ago
w1ntermute 14y ago
I personally agree with everything the article says, and came up with most of these ideas years ago, as my "ideal" restaurant. But most people are like you, and value the status quo restaurant atmosphere over increases in efficiency. There's no way this would work without a massive cultural shift. But personally, the ridiculously inefficient eating-at-a-restaurant process is one of the reasons (along with saving money and staying healthy) why I prefer to eat at home whenever possible. Other than for social purposes and specialty food, I avoid restaurants like the plague. For example, there is no reason for me to go to an Italian restaurant when I can make the same dishes at home with less time than it'll take me to drive to the restaurant, get a table, eat, and drive back home.
MattRogish 14y ago
If I want the most efficient dining experience I'll order in or go to a fast food place. I go to a restaurant for the UX: a date night, the atmosphere, getting out of the apartment, people watching, hanging with friends, etc. Downtime is the point! It is supposed to take time. It gives me a relaxed period of time to talk with the people I'm with while drinking beer/wine and waiting for the food to arrive. To enjoy the experience. Converting restaurants to a twitter/facebook 30-second attention span experience seems like a net negative de-evolution to me. I don't play with my phone while I'm at the table with other people - I think it's rude as hell - but Dave does that all the time I suppose. Giving me a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am experience is not what I want. I don't have children or am in a giant hurry, but it sounds like that's where he's coming from. Perhaps that's a bigger section of the population than I expect. But, there's a reason why McDonald's has pictures of food as the menu and Ruth's Chris doesn't. edit: That said, I do wish restaurants had a better idea of who their "best" customers are and all that jazz. I just don't think dropping iPads at every table is the right way to go.
- davemcclure 14y ago
  so you really believe that keeping people waiting is what they want? seriously? seriously? bueller? ok fine, guess I'm the only customer in the world who hates waiting in fine restaurants. yeah, right.
  - MattRogish 14y ago
    Waiting? Waiting for what? Food obviously takes time to prepare, so there's a necessary wait as component of the experience. Of course, the "unnecessary" waiting: for a table, for a waiter's attention, etc. are suboptimal. But, I'm not sure an iPad is the solution to that problem.
    - davemc500hats 14y ago
      >>Of course, the "unnecessary" waiting: for a table, for a waiter's attention, etc. are suboptimal yes, they're very suboptimal. and whether or not it's an iPad that's used to fix the problem, it's probably some type of basic tech. this is the opportunity that i'm talking about. if you don't experience the frustration of the wait time, then congrats... guess you're not a customer then.
angersock 14y ago
It's not merely efficiency, though--the reason that these types of ideas suck is that they only care about buy-in from customers. What the customer thinks would enhance their experience. What the customer thinks would be nice "too many choices oh noes!". The fact is that for the true clients in the market (the restaurants), we need to look at what makes their lives easier. And over the course of centuries, we've figured out more or less how to optimally use humans to service diners. Take the idea of perks for frequent diners--this functionality is already exposed in most bars and restaurants if the customer comes back frequently enough to be recognized by the wait staff, and if they aren't so damned obnoxious that the restaurant wants to get rid of them. Electronic menus for a place with 20 tables could be an outlay of around 4-10K, assuming you need only one tablet per table (you won't) and that the tablets won't ever break (they will) and that the customers will appreciate the move (they may not) and that there is no backend integration (there should be). Or, the owner can spend half that (say, 5 grand) on an 2 additional servers at $2.13/hr (in Texas) and "rent" them for a split 40 hrs/wk and better service. That's just silly. Taking the example of Tex-Mex food, the same basic palette of food in storage can be combined in many different ways to provide variety to the end user, all with little extra cost to the restaurant, and so why bother simplifying a menu? You needlessly increase the data entropy of the choices offered and in so doing force yourself to have to purchase more varied ingredients (bad) in order to provide fewer perceived menu items (also bad). It's just dumb. The problem of too much choice, bad descriptions, or not remembering last food ordered is very strictly a diner issue, not a restaurant one. Solving it, despite the relatively large amount of work the restaurant would have to put forth, would result in little payback. The places where people spend enough per-plate to justify that outlay already have quality staff kept on specifically because they can keep track of that and give the high-touch to their select audience. This really is a great example of somebody trying to use tech to solve problems that don't exist for people in an industry they don't understand.
- davemcclure 14y ago
  umm... 1) if it's a customer problem, it's a restaurant problem. 2) simplicity helps restaurants as much as customers 3) shorter wait time / quicker payment helps restaurants as much as customers 4) happy customers order more, come back more often 5) pretty sure we have experience in the industry, from 20+ investments in the category. certainly several of our entrepreneurs know what the hell they're doing, especially ElaCarte (also YC co & Lightbank co) in short, the issues noted are just as much "restaurant" problems as customer problems -- and if you think those aren't connected, you've got even bigger issues as an entrepreneur. anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. but I'm pretty sure you're assuming a zero-sum game here when actually the solutions help both sides.
davemcclure 14y ago
interesting. rather elitist perspective, and seriously out-of-touch with most mainstream consumers. I'd hate to build a business based on pissing off customers, but I guess you're welcome to give that a spin. best of luck with that.
- kolektiv 14y ago
  Heh, well, I've just got back from a lovely restaurant, and I have to admit that they had a wonderful cellar and a well-matched sommelier, so this will be brief, as I'm having to re-read quite diligently! I don't really think I'm being elitist - but I will admit that I'm talking about a sector within a market. Clearly I'm not talking about fast food, I'm talking about a specific type of dining experience. If this technology existed within a KFC (and was executed well) I'd like it (yes, I'm that weird guy that likes good dining and the occasional meal of absolute junk...) I don't think that most restaurants currently piss off customers though - if they did, they'd generally be broke I think. I think you're assuming that the changes you suggest would make the best even better - and I genuinely don't think that would be the case. I think that character, personality, idiosyncrasy etc. are the makers of a great restaurant as much as the food, and I didn't feel like these ideas fitted that - at least within certain markets. If you're ever in London and you fancy a discussion about what would really make for an incredible restaurant, and you fancy discussing it over wonderful food, give me a shout... (Dinner's on me, of course)
  - davemcclure 14y ago
    hope to share a beer and a meal in London sometime then... if we can get the waiter's attention ;)

ezran 14y ago

I agree. Intrusive LCD panels at the table, removal from human interaction, horrid restaurant-chosen hierarchies of categories to wade through, etc... With menus, everybody gets one and can peruse as they see fit, rather than a little shared computer. With a waiter/waitress you can talk through special options or dealing with split bills and anything like that. And don't get me started on social and tracking -- I can't think of anything that would more quickly destroy my interest in a restaurant than having to log in with twitter or facebook. (And believe me, if the restaurant posted/tweeted on my friend's behalf, they would lose my business.)

greggman 14y ago
The right tool for the job. If I'm going on a date I want a chef. If I'm going to a cheap izakaya in tokyo with 4-12 friends for cheap drinks and snacks I'm perfectly happy with color LCD ordering touch screens which they've had here since 2005. There's a time and place for both. Being able to sit and eat with a group of friends and not have a waiter interrupt your conversation can be a plus
- davemc500hats 14y ago
  >> "Being able to sit and eat with a group of friends and not have a waiter interrupt your conversation can be a plus" but that's exactly my point. without useful methods of communication with waiters, they will likely interrupt, and/or you will be kept waiting. i'm flabbergasted by the number of people who seem to interpret efficient communication as mutually exclusive from a high-end restaurant or good customer service. they aren't at all mutually exclusive, and in fact they are exactly in pursuit of same goal.
  - ThadCloudDine 14y ago
    Here's a more concrete example of how efficient communication would improve your dining experience. (Disclaimer: The startup I founded, Cloud Dine Systems, does this, so take this with a bit of salt since I'm a bit biased.) You want a refill of your coffee during the breakfast rush. You can either try to flag down one of the wait staff or send a text to the restaurant with "#Table12 can you refill my coffee?" The wait staff gets the text and delivers you a coffee refill. Notice, you sent off the asynchronous message and then continue talking with your friends instead of pausing the conversation to flag down staff. It translates to better service and a better dining experience because the timing matches your needs. Similar examples follow for anything you would flag a waiter down for. IMHO, one of the more pressing problems is efficient communication within the restaurant. Here's where the gains from better communication are the greatest. But that's a whole different conversation.

malachismith 14y ago

Thank you so much for saying this. It perfectly captures my feelings about this piece - and also my frustration for what eating out has become. I actually had some asshat try to take pictures of the meal I was eating with his iPhone the other day.

fudged71 14y ago

Yes, I agree. Efficiency is not what I want from a restaurant. Waiting for my order is one of those rare times to spend time with someone, discuss things, and absorb the restaurant atmosphere. A good restaurant menu doesn't list all ingredients and recipes, presentations and pictures. I want that anticipation, that wonder, and that trust in the chef. When I receive my food I like to be surprised; to discovery and explore a dish, even if it's something I've had before. If the restaurant leaves a lasting impression on me, in terms of atmosphere, service, and taste, then I won't need a reminder of what I had last time. I don't need details/pictures of dishes because I already have that trust in the chef. And in terms of service, a good restaurant/waiter will recommend something for me, or know what I have ordered in the past. It's part of the social experience of dining, having an actual discussion with the people who know the food. Dave seems to be suggesting the exact opposite of what I would want in a quality restaurant experience. But I'm sure his opinion is different with children in the mix. It's really interesting how diverse the dining experience can be, and how both class and social groups can change your view of it.

davemc500hats 14y ago
>> "Efficiency is not what I want from a restaurant." umm, pretty sure that there IS a very large market of people who DO want efficiency as one of the attributes of restaurant customer service, even at the absolute high-end. in fact, some might say high-end restaurants excel at efficiency and customer service, and technology to bring this to the masses (whether at McD's or at French Laundry) would be welcomed by all. efficiency != low quality experience; in fact quite the contrary.
- rdl 14y ago
  If you want an example of an efficient upper-middle range restaurant: Cheesecake Factory. So efficient that someone used it as an example of how to fix the healthcare industry. They use a lot of science/tech, although not all computers. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_...
  - 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago

I personally agree with everything the article says, and came up with most of these ideas years ago, as my "ideal" restaurant. But most people are like you, and value the status quo restaurant atmosphere over increases in efficiency. There's no way this would work without a massive cultural shift. But personally, the ridiculously inefficient eating-at-a-restaurant process is one of the reasons (along with saving money and staying healthy) why I prefer to eat at home whenever possible. Other than for social purposes and specialty food, I avoid restaurants like the plague. For example, there is no reason for me to go to an Italian restaurant when I can make the same dishes at home with less time than it'll take me to drive to the restaurant, get a table, eat, and drive back home.

MattRogish 14y ago

If I want the most efficient dining experience I'll order in or go to a fast food place. I go to a restaurant for the UX: a date night, the atmosphere, getting out of the apartment, people watching, hanging with friends, etc. Downtime is the point! It is supposed to take time. It gives me a relaxed period of time to talk with the people I'm with while drinking beer/wine and waiting for the food to arrive. To enjoy the experience. Converting restaurants to a twitter/facebook 30-second attention span experience seems like a net negative de-evolution to me. I don't play with my phone while I'm at the table with other people - I think it's rude as hell - but Dave does that all the time I suppose. Giving me a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am experience is not what I want. I don't have children or am in a giant hurry, but it sounds like that's where he's coming from. Perhaps that's a bigger section of the population than I expect. But, there's a reason why McDonald's has pictures of food as the menu and Ruth's Chris doesn't. edit: That said, I do wish restaurants had a better idea of who their "best" customers are and all that jazz. I just don't think dropping iPads at every table is the right way to go.

davemcclure 14y ago
so you really believe that keeping people waiting is what they want? seriously? seriously? bueller? ok fine, guess I'm the only customer in the world who hates waiting in fine restaurants. yeah, right.
- MattRogish 14y ago
  Waiting? Waiting for what? Food obviously takes time to prepare, so there's a necessary wait as component of the experience. Of course, the "unnecessary" waiting: for a table, for a waiter's attention, etc. are suboptimal. But, I'm not sure an iPad is the solution to that problem.
  - davemc500hats 14y ago
    >>Of course, the "unnecessary" waiting: for a table, for a waiter's attention, etc. are suboptimal yes, they're very suboptimal. and whether or not it's an iPad that's used to fix the problem, it's probably some type of basic tech. this is the opportunity that i'm talking about. if you don't experience the frustration of the wait time, then congrats... guess you're not a customer then.

angersock 14y ago

It's not merely efficiency, though--the reason that these types of ideas suck is that they only care about buy-in from customers. What the customer thinks would enhance their experience. What the customer thinks would be nice "too many choices oh noes!". The fact is that for the true clients in the market (the restaurants), we need to look at what makes their lives easier. And over the course of centuries, we've figured out more or less how to optimally use humans to service diners. Take the idea of perks for frequent diners--this functionality is already exposed in most bars and restaurants if the customer comes back frequently enough to be recognized by the wait staff, and if they aren't so damned obnoxious that the restaurant wants to get rid of them. Electronic menus for a place with 20 tables could be an outlay of around 4-10K, assuming you need only one tablet per table (you won't) and that the tablets won't ever break (they will) and that the customers will appreciate the move (they may not) and that there is no backend integration (there should be). Or, the owner can spend half that (say, 5 grand) on an 2 additional servers at $2.13/hr (in Texas) and "rent" them for a split 40 hrs/wk and better service. That's just silly. Taking the example of Tex-Mex food, the same basic palette of food in storage can be combined in many different ways to provide variety to the end user, all with little extra cost to the restaurant, and so why bother simplifying a menu? You needlessly increase the data entropy of the choices offered and in so doing force yourself to have to purchase more varied ingredients (bad) in order to provide fewer perceived menu items (also bad). It's just dumb. The problem of too much choice, bad descriptions, or not remembering last food ordered is very strictly a diner issue, not a restaurant one. Solving it, despite the relatively large amount of work the restaurant would have to put forth, would result in little payback. The places where people spend enough per-plate to justify that outlay already have quality staff kept on specifically because they can keep track of that and give the high-touch to their select audience. This really is a great example of somebody trying to use tech to solve problems that don't exist for people in an industry they don't understand.

davemcclure 14y ago
umm... 1) if it's a customer problem, it's a restaurant problem. 2) simplicity helps restaurants as much as customers 3) shorter wait time / quicker payment helps restaurants as much as customers 4) happy customers order more, come back more often 5) pretty sure we have experience in the industry, from 20+ investments in the category. certainly several of our entrepreneurs know what the hell they're doing, especially ElaCarte (also YC co & Lightbank co) in short, the issues noted are just as much "restaurant" problems as customer problems -- and if you think those aren't connected, you've got even bigger issues as an entrepreneur. anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. but I'm pretty sure you're assuming a zero-sum game here when actually the solutions help both sides.

davemcclure 14y ago

interesting. rather elitist perspective, and seriously out-of-touch with most mainstream consumers. I'd hate to build a business based on pissing off customers, but I guess you're welcome to give that a spin. best of luck with that.

kolektiv 14y ago
Heh, well, I've just got back from a lovely restaurant, and I have to admit that they had a wonderful cellar and a well-matched sommelier, so this will be brief, as I'm having to re-read quite diligently! I don't really think I'm being elitist - but I will admit that I'm talking about a sector within a market. Clearly I'm not talking about fast food, I'm talking about a specific type of dining experience. If this technology existed within a KFC (and was executed well) I'd like it (yes, I'm that weird guy that likes good dining and the occasional meal of absolute junk...) I don't think that most restaurants currently piss off customers though - if they did, they'd generally be broke I think. I think you're assuming that the changes you suggest would make the best even better - and I genuinely don't think that would be the case. I think that character, personality, idiosyncrasy etc. are the makers of a great restaurant as much as the food, and I didn't feel like these ideas fitted that - at least within certain markets. If you're ever in London and you fancy a discussion about what would really make for an incredible restaurant, and you fancy discussing it over wonderful food, give me a shout... (Dinner's on me, of course)
- davemcclure 14y ago
  hope to share a beer and a meal in London sometime then... if we can get the waiter's attention ;)