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> I think Apple's real problem is that they built machines that can last. So do Toyota and Honda, and their sales seems be pretty steady.

mahboi 13d ago
Toyota and Honda have competitors that are pretty interchangeable, like each other.
- throw0101c 13d ago
  > Toyota and Honda have competitors that are pretty interchangeable, like each other. Do any of these competitors build "machines that can last" as much as Toyota and Honda? Does any other manufacturer have a longevity reputation of either of these two? What are the depreciation schedules of competitors (AIUI, T/H hold their value pretty well)?
  - mahboi 13d ago
    Toyota and Honda have each other as direct competitors. If one of them sacrifices reliability, it's over. There are also second tier ones like Nissan making interchangeable cars, so if say Toyota stoops to Nissan's level, then they have to start selling at Nissan prices. I would also say Ford, but their reputation for reliability applies only to their trucks.
    - WesolyKubeczek 13d ago
      Funny that Honda's hybrids seem to be licensing Toyota's eCVT magic, so it's quite a bit like Apple and Samsung, where they would be filling each other's pockets while also being at each other's throat.
      - NobodyNada 13d ago
        Honda's hybrids are their own thing. They're mostly-series hybrids with one or two direct-drive gears for cruising speeds, as opposed to Toyota's parallel hybrid system.
      - DwarvenEngineer 13d ago
        wdym? Honda's hyrid technology is very different from what Toyota has architecturally
    - SoftTalker 13d ago
      When Ford and Mazda were working together they had some pretty reliable cars. My Focus outlasted two Hondas that I owned. The Hondas were "nicer" cars in terms of features and interior but mechanically the Ford kicked their asses.
      - mahboi 13d ago
        Yeah, there was an era of good Focuses, also the Crown Vic. Crown Vic is probably their only car a random person will see and assume it's reliable, in the US at least.
schaefer 13d ago
In most countries without 100% tariffs and outright bans Toyota's sales are in decline because of competition from BYD. For example, sales for the first half of 2026 vs first half of 2025 in Australia show: Toyota is down 20% BYD is up 68%
- fragmede 13d ago
  Which is great to throw around numbers, but how are their reliability numbers? Before I throw out my 20 year old Honda for a BYD, how is the 20 year old BYD (or Telsa or Slate) doing? Unfortunately we don't know, though we're coming up on 29 years for Tesla soon.
  - gumby 13d ago
    14 years, really, if you don’t count the roadster (which I think it is correct not to do).
  - schaefer 13d ago
    Frag, I am engaging in this from a "Logic 101" perspective. I saw a false premise used in an argument and I only wanted to point that out. I have no actual position on cars brands or apple computers or any of that.
  - ndiddy 13d ago
    The comment you're replying to is saying that in fair markets, BYD is taking market share away from Toyota even without the proven track record of reliability. Saying "But I wouldn't buy a BYD unless I knew it was reliable" is kind of missing the point.
- throw0101c 13d ago
  > In most countries without 100% tariffs and outright bans Toyota's sales are in decline because of competition from BYD. Is it because BYD is more reliable or 'just' cheaper? There are a number of folks for who H/T would be their first pick if not for (a) waitlists and/or (b) price considerations. And there a lot of folks who don't necessarily care if the car will last 10 or 15(+) years because they'll replace it earlier that that, so as long as it's 'good enough' it's fine.
timbaboon 13d ago
In South Africa Toyotas (Hilux in particular) get stolen all the time because they are so reliable (and you get parts throughout Africa). So then you end up making new sales when people replace their stolen cars. One way to get around the problem for them I guess? /s :)

mahboi 13d ago

Toyota and Honda have competitors that are pretty interchangeable, like each other.

throw0101c 13d ago
> Toyota and Honda have competitors that are pretty interchangeable, like each other. Do any of these competitors build "machines that can last" as much as Toyota and Honda? Does any other manufacturer have a longevity reputation of either of these two? What are the depreciation schedules of competitors (AIUI, T/H hold their value pretty well)?
- mahboi 13d ago
  Toyota and Honda have each other as direct competitors. If one of them sacrifices reliability, it's over. There are also second tier ones like Nissan making interchangeable cars, so if say Toyota stoops to Nissan's level, then they have to start selling at Nissan prices. I would also say Ford, but their reputation for reliability applies only to their trucks.
  - WesolyKubeczek 13d ago
    Funny that Honda's hybrids seem to be licensing Toyota's eCVT magic, so it's quite a bit like Apple and Samsung, where they would be filling each other's pockets while also being at each other's throat.
    - NobodyNada 13d ago
      Honda's hybrids are their own thing. They're mostly-series hybrids with one or two direct-drive gears for cruising speeds, as opposed to Toyota's parallel hybrid system.
    - DwarvenEngineer 13d ago
      wdym? Honda's hyrid technology is very different from what Toyota has architecturally
  - SoftTalker 13d ago
    When Ford and Mazda were working together they had some pretty reliable cars. My Focus outlasted two Hondas that I owned. The Hondas were "nicer" cars in terms of features and interior but mechanically the Ford kicked their asses.
    - mahboi 13d ago
      Yeah, there was an era of good Focuses, also the Crown Vic. Crown Vic is probably their only car a random person will see and assume it's reliable, in the US at least.

schaefer 13d ago

In most countries without 100% tariffs and outright bans Toyota's sales are in decline because of competition from BYD. For example, sales for the first half of 2026 vs first half of 2025 in Australia show: Toyota is down 20% BYD is up 68%

fragmede 13d ago
Which is great to throw around numbers, but how are their reliability numbers? Before I throw out my 20 year old Honda for a BYD, how is the 20 year old BYD (or Telsa or Slate) doing? Unfortunately we don't know, though we're coming up on 29 years for Tesla soon.
- gumby 13d ago
  14 years, really, if you don’t count the roadster (which I think it is correct not to do).
- schaefer 13d ago
  Frag, I am engaging in this from a "Logic 101" perspective. I saw a false premise used in an argument and I only wanted to point that out. I have no actual position on cars brands or apple computers or any of that.
- ndiddy 13d ago
  The comment you're replying to is saying that in fair markets, BYD is taking market share away from Toyota even without the proven track record of reliability. Saying "But I wouldn't buy a BYD unless I knew it was reliable" is kind of missing the point.
throw0101c 13d ago
> In most countries without 100% tariffs and outright bans Toyota's sales are in decline because of competition from BYD. Is it because BYD is more reliable or 'just' cheaper? There are a number of folks for who H/T would be their first pick if not for (a) waitlists and/or (b) price considerations. And there a lot of folks who don't necessarily care if the car will last 10 or 15(+) years because they'll replace it earlier that that, so as long as it's 'good enough' it's fine.

timbaboon 13d ago

In South Africa Toyotas (Hilux in particular) get stolen all the time because they are so reliable (and you get parts throughout Africa). So then you end up making new sales when people replace their stolen cars. One way to get around the problem for them I guess? /s :)