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Well, if there are >0 developed countries that have solved this (Israel, the GCC, dare I say fairly well-off MENA countries like Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, etc.,

Well, if there are >0 developed countries that have solved this (Israel, the GCC, dare I say fairly well-off MENA countries like Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, etc., and to a minor degree Botswana) then this proves wrong the hypothesis that modern hyper-development must inherently mean population collapse. Going purely by the evolution theory and natural selection, having so few children that there is a serious risk a population will disappear in a century or two, means losing. Needless to say, this is stupid. From the entire American continent, to Europe, India more recently, Thailand, China, the Koreas, Japan. Africans, Arabs, and some non-Arab Muslim populations will carry the torch. Much respect for not falling into the trap.

pixl97 5d ago
> then this proves wrong the hypothesis that modern hyper-development must inherently mean population collapse. Honestly you're reading the data completely wrong. You cannot look at it at the country level. In Israel for example the populations that are producing the most population are highly religious and less educated than those that are producing less population. It's more about memes. Religion is a meme driven breeding cult. This is why said religions tend to have very long term staying power. The particular problem here is these religions come at a cost of having to ignore a lot of reality to get to that point. Because they are faith based anything that presents a direct challenge to that faith must be setup as an enemy or it may risk the religion. Yes, religions can incorporate new information but it tends to be a slow process as it needs to involve slowly changing peoples mind to avoid instability. What this looks like in the long term is large populations of highly religious that have a fundamental disconnect from the technology that's keeping them alive. A new Late Bronze Age collapse.
- belowavgiq 5d ago
  So? How does the population being religious disprove the fact that they are developed and having children? Not to mention that I have listed around ~10 countries after Israel. Uh... Meme-based? This is such an unserious argument I don't even know what I can possibly say to that. How are they disconnected with the technology keeping them alive? All people, in GCC countries especially, are working to make 1st world development happen. Implying that religious Jews or Muslims are stuck in the Bronze Age is ignoring reality. Most European development itself came from men of science who were Christian, I thought this apparent conflict of ideas was something taught in schools.
  - pixl97 5d ago
    First, you seems to think a meme is something unserious. Read Richard Dawkins The Selfish Gene so you know what meme actually stands for rather than the thing you see on Reddit. GCC countries are resource economies mostly. They must weave a very narrow path to success to non-oil based means of income or the entire region collapses. I will say they do realize this is a problem and are using oil money to diversify, but resource curses are very hard to break and collapse can happen very quickly. "My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son's son will ride a camel." --Sheikh Rashid bin Saeed Al Maktoum >Most European development itself came from men of science who were Christian This is just stating that that in 1700 you were a Christian or you got hung (hell, pre-independence America was founded by people that thought that too few people were being hung). As we see when you take out the hanging or social shame part of the religion people tend to flee them as they are oppressive structures. You could say them being men of science either had no bearing to their religion, or was in spite of their religion. I am saying, for example, that the Abrahamic religions are bronze age (ok, sorry, Iron age) social structures. I don't think studied scholars are going to disagree on that point very much. People saw how people worked and could be sheppereded in societies without formal education and turned it into a series of stories that were effective in modifying peoples behaviors. Kings later came along and added their stories so they could further control the population. Over time a semi-coherent story about how people worked was formed below a set of rather incoherent stories regarding things that didn't happen that people are supposed to accept with faith.
HarHarVeryFunny 5d ago
Don't worry, we've got Elon Musk trying to single-handedly repopulate America. And if that fails, we've got "Idiocracy" to save the human species as the dumb-asses pump out babies as fast as you like.
reeredfdfdf 5d ago
Algeria and Morocco hardly seem "fairly well-off" countries, considering how many of their citizens prefer moving to the low-birth rate European countries you loathe. High birth rate of Israel is also unsustainable from economic perspective, as it relies mostly on orthodox Jews who on average are much poorer, less educated, and contribute less to the Israeli economy. I'm not saying fast fall in birth rates isn't a problem, it obviously is. However, nearly all countries that don't have this problem offer much worse quality of life than those which do.

pixl97 5d ago

> then this proves wrong the hypothesis that modern hyper-development must inherently mean population collapse. Honestly you're reading the data completely wrong. You cannot look at it at the country level. In Israel for example the populations that are producing the most population are highly religious and less educated than those that are producing less population. It's more about memes. Religion is a meme driven breeding cult. This is why said religions tend to have very long term staying power. The particular problem here is these religions come at a cost of having to ignore a lot of reality to get to that point. Because they are faith based anything that presents a direct challenge to that faith must be setup as an enemy or it may risk the religion. Yes, religions can incorporate new information but it tends to be a slow process as it needs to involve slowly changing peoples mind to avoid instability. What this looks like in the long term is large populations of highly religious that have a fundamental disconnect from the technology that's keeping them alive. A new Late Bronze Age collapse.

belowavgiq 5d ago
So? How does the population being religious disprove the fact that they are developed and having children? Not to mention that I have listed around ~10 countries after Israel. Uh... Meme-based? This is such an unserious argument I don't even know what I can possibly say to that. How are they disconnected with the technology keeping them alive? All people, in GCC countries especially, are working to make 1st world development happen. Implying that religious Jews or Muslims are stuck in the Bronze Age is ignoring reality. Most European development itself came from men of science who were Christian, I thought this apparent conflict of ideas was something taught in schools.
- pixl97 5d ago
  First, you seems to think a meme is something unserious. Read Richard Dawkins The Selfish Gene so you know what meme actually stands for rather than the thing you see on Reddit. GCC countries are resource economies mostly. They must weave a very narrow path to success to non-oil based means of income or the entire region collapses. I will say they do realize this is a problem and are using oil money to diversify, but resource curses are very hard to break and collapse can happen very quickly. "My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son's son will ride a camel." --Sheikh Rashid bin Saeed Al Maktoum >Most European development itself came from men of science who were Christian This is just stating that that in 1700 you were a Christian or you got hung (hell, pre-independence America was founded by people that thought that too few people were being hung). As we see when you take out the hanging or social shame part of the religion people tend to flee them as they are oppressive structures. You could say them being men of science either had no bearing to their religion, or was in spite of their religion. I am saying, for example, that the Abrahamic religions are bronze age (ok, sorry, Iron age) social structures. I don't think studied scholars are going to disagree on that point very much. People saw how people worked and could be sheppereded in societies without formal education and turned it into a series of stories that were effective in modifying peoples behaviors. Kings later came along and added their stories so they could further control the population. Over time a semi-coherent story about how people worked was formed below a set of rather incoherent stories regarding things that didn't happen that people are supposed to accept with faith.

HarHarVeryFunny 5d ago

Don't worry, we've got Elon Musk trying to single-handedly repopulate America. And if that fails, we've got "Idiocracy" to save the human species as the dumb-asses pump out babies as fast as you like.

reeredfdfdf 5d ago

Algeria and Morocco hardly seem "fairly well-off" countries, considering how many of their citizens prefer moving to the low-birth rate European countries you loathe. High birth rate of Israel is also unsustainable from economic perspective, as it relies mostly on orthodox Jews who on average are much poorer, less educated, and contribute less to the Israeli economy. I'm not saying fast fall in birth rates isn't a problem, it obviously is. However, nearly all countries that don't have this problem offer much worse quality of life than those which do.