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No radical act of self sacrifice would have been necessary had he only leaked illegal or possibly illegal programs. Instead, he went to Hong Kong and leaked a l

No radical act of self sacrifice would have been necessary had he only leaked illegal or possibly illegal programs. Instead, he went to Hong Kong and leaked a list of compromised Chinese networks and systems in hopes of getting asylum from China.

maxbond 12d ago
That's a very optimistic view of the US justice system's treatment of whistleblowers (surely they would contend that all of their programs were legal), but now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. So I don't see how this helps the case.
- mannanj 12d ago
  I once publicly stated here that I think some accounts are astroturfers, and I think some are deep state too. I am not making specific accusations.
  - tosapple 12d ago
    i just had that conversation about 'industrial' effort and 'actors', we have recent examples of monetary corruption in the sacklers.
  - MSFT_Edging 11d ago
    For some reason people think psychological operations are some kind of urban legend.
  - linkregister 11d ago
    If a commenter posts a thing that I disagree with, then their motives are bad. Whereas all opinions of mine are pure and in good faith.
- lern_too_spel 11d ago
  > now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. Putin wanted him in Russia, and Snowden happened to be passing through. Simple as that. I already explained the clear evidence (from Snowden's own mouth) that Snowden initially wanted to gain asylum in Hong Kong by leaking hacks of Chinese infrastructure in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49784968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49784968. Snowden didn't grow up wanting to be Chinese. He simply misread the PRISM documents and imagined a USA that completely ignored the 4th Amendment. Somebody in such a state could easily imagine a USA that would ignore the 8th Amendment, and so he had to flee in order to get the news out about the former, which he talked about nonstop the moment he got journalists' ears. It turned out that he was wrong about PRISM, and he was wrong about the government ignoring the 4th Amendment because the only extant program that might have been in violation was shut down. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49785016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49785016 The lesson in all this? Stay in school.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 11d ago
    >and imagined a USA that completely ignored the 4th Amendment. Haha. Tell us another one. I don't have enough comedy in my life.
    - lern_too_spel 11d ago
      He said so himself. I take him at his word. Meanwhile, the actual USA stopped doing the one extant program in his leaks that was ruled a violation of the 4th Amendment.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 11d ago
        >the actual USA stopped doing the one extant program in his leaks that was ruled a violation of the 4th Amendment. To move it to another program, classified and unreported, under which it could hide again. Don't be naive.
achierius 12d ago
Just like with John Kiriakou, the only man ever convicted in connection with the torture program? He went to prison for two years despite only ever leaking information about illegal programs, lost his wife, lost all his money; is that the mercy you expected Snowden to submit to?
- lern_too_spel 11d ago
  Kiriakou gave an interview to ABC describing waterboarding on December 10, 2007, in order to defend the practice. The government did not charge him with any crimes at the time. Three years prior, Newsweek had reported on a secret memo from Yoo justifying the use of waterboarding on Abu Zubaydah. None of the people who leaked that memo were charged with crimes. Three months prior to Kiriakou's interview, "current and former high-ranking U.S. intelligence officials" said that three prisoners had been waterboarded, including Zubaydah. None of them were charged with crimes. Four years after Kiriakou's interview, he was charged with giving the names of CIA agents to two journalists, a crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment, not for describing waterboarding, which if he had leaked would have been covered by the Whistleblower Protection Act.
pydry 12d ago
That's a conspiracy theory I haven't heard before which I'm pretty sure I'll never hear a shred of evidence for.
- lern_too_spel 11d ago
  It's well documented. Snowden himself has admitted as much, and it requires no conspiracy — only the stupidity of a single high school dropout. https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3178655/june-12-2013-us-spy-net-targets-hong-kong-edward-snowden https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3178655... https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-s... https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chinese-mobile-phone-companies-steals-sms-data-edward-snowden https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chi...
  - linkregister 11d ago
    Snowden wasn't stupid. He was the world's best Sharepoint administrator. It was probably unwise of him to insult the T group director publicly, which led to the entire subsequent chain of events.
mitxela 12d ago
If one country wants to kill you why wouldn't you flee to a different one and give them everything you have against the first country?
- Arodex 12d ago
  Sorry, but is Russia or the USA the one most likely to kill Snowden? Oh, yeah, it isn't Russia, because Snowden avoids saying things that could trigger his KGB handlers to disappear him... Like denouncing a genocidal war of aggression against a neighbor, or the assassination of journalists and political opponents, or the repression of any opposition in the streets...
  - pidgeon_lover 12d ago
    By leaking American info, Snowden painted a target on his back that can be reached by the USA and all allies with extradition agreements. That leaves him with very few superpowers who won't hand him over to the FBI/CIA and execution or imprisonment. If I were in his shoes, I too would relocate to a superpower not allied with the USA and avoid getting involved in anything political over there.
    - Arodex 11d ago
      Execution? A few years of imprisonment at worst. Trump has pardoned worse people (the guy from SilkRoad for instance). Russia may execute him anytime though. And his family. Easy to pretend he was killed by an Ukrainian bombing.
scrollaway 11d ago
Your president literally does illegal things all the time and your Supreme Court just declares it’s legal because it’s the president. You have zero moral ground or credibility to stand on.

maxbond 12d ago

That's a very optimistic view of the US justice system's treatment of whistleblowers (surely they would contend that all of their programs were legal), but now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. So I don't see how this helps the case.

mannanj 12d ago
I once publicly stated here that I think some accounts are astroturfers, and I think some are deep state too. I am not making specific accusations.
- tosapple 12d ago
  i just had that conversation about 'industrial' effort and 'actors', we have recent examples of monetary corruption in the sacklers.
- MSFT_Edging 11d ago
  For some reason people think psychological operations are some kind of urban legend.
- linkregister 11d ago
  If a commenter posts a thing that I disagree with, then their motives are bad. Whereas all opinions of mine are pure and in good faith.
lern_too_spel 11d ago
> now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. Putin wanted him in Russia, and Snowden happened to be passing through. Simple as that. I already explained the clear evidence (from Snowden's own mouth) that Snowden initially wanted to gain asylum in Hong Kong by leaking hacks of Chinese infrastructure in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49784968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49784968. Snowden didn't grow up wanting to be Chinese. He simply misread the PRISM documents and imagined a USA that completely ignored the 4th Amendment. Somebody in such a state could easily imagine a USA that would ignore the 8th Amendment, and so he had to flee in order to get the news out about the former, which he talked about nonstop the moment he got journalists' ears. It turned out that he was wrong about PRISM, and he was wrong about the government ignoring the 4th Amendment because the only extant program that might have been in violation was shut down. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49785016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49785016 The lesson in all this? Stay in school.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 11d ago
  >and imagined a USA that completely ignored the 4th Amendment. Haha. Tell us another one. I don't have enough comedy in my life.
  - lern_too_spel 11d ago
    He said so himself. I take him at his word. Meanwhile, the actual USA stopped doing the one extant program in his leaks that was ruled a violation of the 4th Amendment.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 11d ago
      >the actual USA stopped doing the one extant program in his leaks that was ruled a violation of the 4th Amendment. To move it to another program, classified and unreported, under which it could hide again. Don't be naive.

achierius 12d ago

Just like with John Kiriakou, the only man ever convicted in connection with the torture program? He went to prison for two years despite only ever leaking information about illegal programs, lost his wife, lost all his money; is that the mercy you expected Snowden to submit to?

lern_too_spel 11d ago
Kiriakou gave an interview to ABC describing waterboarding on December 10, 2007, in order to defend the practice. The government did not charge him with any crimes at the time. Three years prior, Newsweek had reported on a secret memo from Yoo justifying the use of waterboarding on Abu Zubaydah. None of the people who leaked that memo were charged with crimes. Three months prior to Kiriakou's interview, "current and former high-ranking U.S. intelligence officials" said that three prisoners had been waterboarded, including Zubaydah. None of them were charged with crimes. Four years after Kiriakou's interview, he was charged with giving the names of CIA agents to two journalists, a crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment, not for describing waterboarding, which if he had leaked would have been covered by the Whistleblower Protection Act.

pydry 12d ago

That's a conspiracy theory I haven't heard before which I'm pretty sure I'll never hear a shred of evidence for.

lern_too_spel 11d ago
It's well documented. Snowden himself has admitted as much, and it requires no conspiracy — only the stupidity of a single high school dropout. https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3178655/june-12-2013-us-spy-net-targets-hong-kong-edward-snowden https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3178655... https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-s... https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chinese-mobile-phone-companies-steals-sms-data-edward-snowden https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chi...
- linkregister 11d ago
  Snowden wasn't stupid. He was the world's best Sharepoint administrator. It was probably unwise of him to insult the T group director publicly, which led to the entire subsequent chain of events.

mitxela 12d ago

If one country wants to kill you why wouldn't you flee to a different one and give them everything you have against the first country?

Arodex 12d ago
Sorry, but is Russia or the USA the one most likely to kill Snowden? Oh, yeah, it isn't Russia, because Snowden avoids saying things that could trigger his KGB handlers to disappear him... Like denouncing a genocidal war of aggression against a neighbor, or the assassination of journalists and political opponents, or the repression of any opposition in the streets...
- pidgeon_lover 12d ago
  By leaking American info, Snowden painted a target on his back that can be reached by the USA and all allies with extradition agreements. That leaves him with very few superpowers who won't hand him over to the FBI/CIA and execution or imprisonment. If I were in his shoes, I too would relocate to a superpower not allied with the USA and avoid getting involved in anything political over there.
  - Arodex 11d ago
    Execution? A few years of imprisonment at worst. Trump has pardoned worse people (the guy from SilkRoad for instance). Russia may execute him anytime though. And his family. Easy to pretend he was killed by an Ukrainian bombing.

scrollaway 11d ago

Your president literally does illegal things all the time and your Supreme Court just declares it’s legal because it’s the president. You have zero moral ground or credibility to stand on.