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He could have returned to the US. He chose to exile in Russia. He was already fleeing. I posted a bunch about it below

unsungNovelty 12d ago
Snowden has repeatedly talked about why he wouldn't return to US cos the trial won't be fair. He wanted to be able to talk. But due to his role, the trial would be a muppet one where he can't even talk. Or am I wrong? At the time, look at the situation of Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and the many whistle blowers before Snowden? How can u blame him? Edit: Am unable to reply to comments. HN don't let you comment 2-3 levels in or is it moderation? - Fixed.
- nl 12d ago
  The OP was right - avoiding a unfair trial is still fleeing. The word "flee" is not a pejorative in any way. For example flee North Korea all the time.
  - unsungNovelty 12d ago
    No. It is pejorative in the way it is used. Context is important.
- firesteelrain 12d ago
  The problem is he can’t excuse the offense under the Espionage Act because it doesn’t have a public interest defense. One could argue that it should have that defense. But that doesn’t mean the resulting trial would have been a “muppet trial” He could have had counsel, challenged the government, and had a jury decide guilt. It would have been fair. It actually looks worse to flee like he did
  - unsungNovelty 12d ago
    "doesn't have a public interest defence". Can't be serious.
    - firesteelrain 12d ago
      There isn’t one under the law so no. Why wasn’t the whistleblower process followed? Why didn’t he try to contact his congressman/ senator ? He could have said I don’t want a clearance anymore and disclosed his concerns. He could have reported anonymously even. He wanted public debate and discourse on something that the process didn’t allow
      - unsungNovelty 12d ago
        What he exposed was found illegal by US courts. And the govt had to stop it. What more evidence do you want?
        lern_too_spel 12d ago
        A single program he leaked was illegal. The vast majority was not, including the hacking of Chinese targets that he leaked directly to SCMP.
        deleted 12d ago
        [deleted]
  - anon7000 12d ago
    I don’t understand. He’s absolutely guilty of violating the US government and probably a handful of laws. I will respect him forever for doing that. But I completely agree that any trial he’d participate in is A) not going to be fair, because why would you trust the government on an issue like this, and B) not really necessary, because he didn’t do anything wrong, even if it was illegal. The only reason to NOT flee is if the government didn’t care about whistleblowers and has amazing protections for them, even in the context of national security. Does it? Maybe you think what he did was morally wrong. Who fucking cares, what the government was and is hiding is even more morally wrong.
    - ShinyLeftPad 12d ago
      For some people what Snowden did was the right thing. But settling in that particular country, makes it seem like he didn't do it from pureness of his heart. Maybe it was accidental but optics is optics. He took the easy way out that is best for him individually, which is understandable but undermined future debate on the question
      - mitxela 12d ago
        Where else would he go? Not many countries don't extradite you to the US for that. US enemies are your only options, and that fact is solely the fault of the US.
        ShinyLeftPad 12d ago
        Nepal UAE Belarus Mongolia Vietnam Laos Montenegro Indonesia
        marsmaps 12d ago
        the same indonesia in which the us government helped organise mass killings of hundreds of thousands of alleged left-wing political activists and voters? [0] [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/th... 'What the United States Did in Indonesia', The Atlantic
- slg 12d ago
  Manning and Assange are both free today. Isn't that proof that whether it was reasonable to believe Snowden was correct at the time, history has proved him wrong?
  - deleted 12d ago
    [deleted]
  - unsungNovelty 12d ago
    Not sure. You are talking about a Snowden in 2013 who looks around and see Chelsea and Assange NOT free. He made the decision based on that and what has happened before. I also think what Snowden exposed is far far far bigger.
  - marcus_holmes 12d ago
    Assange is only free because he was not extradited to the USA, and effectively served ~10 years imprisonment anyway. Manning got a presidential pardon. I wouldn't hold either of these up as a shining example of how the USA treats whistleblowers and journalists.
    - lern_too_spel 12d ago
      [flagged]
      - marcus_holmes 12d ago
        Why is the focus always on what these people did, and not on the crimes that they exposed? Why are you saying "if they had done it differently they would be treated better" instead of "I am ashamed of the evil and illegal acts that my country has done and want to change the system to make this impossible"? Why do you care what either of them did more than you care about what the government did?
        varjag 12d ago
        Which crimes had Manning exposed? There has to be a list somewhere.
- judge2020 12d ago
  With the right/same lawyer, could've potentially worked out similarly to Kiriakou, who only had a few years behind bars and later became a celebrity due to his interviews.
  - defmacr0 12d ago
    "Only had a few years behind bars"
    - Arodex 12d ago
      He's now spent years and is looking at spending the rest of his life in Russia.
- Arodex 12d ago
  Is Snowden able to talk freely in Russia?
  - firesteelrain 12d ago
    About Russia? Nope.
- sandblast 11d ago
  *Bradley Manning
maxbond 12d ago
If we're going to judge Snowden by the standard that he could've rectified his situation through a radical act of self sacrifice, then every US president has had the opportunity to pardon him and has failed to do so. It's an equally sensible proposition. It's plain to see that no US president would entertain the notion. Similarly, it's not reasonable to expect someone to return from exile without being offered some kind of clemency.
- lern_too_spel 12d ago
  No radical act of self sacrifice would have been necessary had he only leaked illegal or possibly illegal programs. Instead, he went to Hong Kong and leaked a list of compromised Chinese networks and systems in hopes of getting asylum from China.
  - maxbond 12d ago
    That's a very optimistic view of the US justice system's treatment of whistleblowers (surely they would contend that all of their programs were legal), but now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. So I don't see how this helps the case.
    - mannanj 12d ago
      I once publicly stated here that I think some accounts are astroturfers, and I think some are deep state too. I am not making specific accusations.
      - tosapple 12d ago
        i just had that conversation about 'industrial' effort and 'actors', we have recent examples of monetary corruption in the sacklers.
      - MSFT_Edging 12d ago
        For some reason people think psychological operations are some kind of urban legend.

Snowden has repeatedly talked about why he wouldn't return to US cos the trial won't be fair. He wanted to be able to talk. But due to his role, the trial would be a muppet one where he can't even talk. Or am I wrong? At the time, look at the situation of Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and the many whistle blowers before Snowden? How can u blame him? Edit: Am unable to reply to comments. HN don't let you comment 2-3 levels in or is it moderation? - Fixed.

nl 12d ago
The OP was right - avoiding a unfair trial is still fleeing. The word "flee" is not a pejorative in any way. For example flee North Korea all the time.
- unsungNovelty 12d ago
  No. It is pejorative in the way it is used. Context is important.
firesteelrain 12d ago
The problem is he can’t excuse the offense under the Espionage Act because it doesn’t have a public interest defense. One could argue that it should have that defense. But that doesn’t mean the resulting trial would have been a “muppet trial” He could have had counsel, challenged the government, and had a jury decide guilt. It would have been fair. It actually looks worse to flee like he did
- unsungNovelty 12d ago
  "doesn't have a public interest defence". Can't be serious.
  - firesteelrain 12d ago
    There isn’t one under the law so no. Why wasn’t the whistleblower process followed? Why didn’t he try to contact his congressman/ senator ? He could have said I don’t want a clearance anymore and disclosed his concerns. He could have reported anonymously even. He wanted public debate and discourse on something that the process didn’t allow
    - unsungNovelty 12d ago
      What he exposed was found illegal by US courts. And the govt had to stop it. What more evidence do you want?
      - lern_too_spel 12d ago
        A single program he leaked was illegal. The vast majority was not, including the hacking of Chinese targets that he leaked directly to SCMP.
      - deleted 12d ago
        [deleted]
- anon7000 12d ago
  I don’t understand. He’s absolutely guilty of violating the US government and probably a handful of laws. I will respect him forever for doing that. But I completely agree that any trial he’d participate in is A) not going to be fair, because why would you trust the government on an issue like this, and B) not really necessary, because he didn’t do anything wrong, even if it was illegal. The only reason to NOT flee is if the government didn’t care about whistleblowers and has amazing protections for them, even in the context of national security. Does it? Maybe you think what he did was morally wrong. Who fucking cares, what the government was and is hiding is even more morally wrong.
  - ShinyLeftPad 12d ago
    For some people what Snowden did was the right thing. But settling in that particular country, makes it seem like he didn't do it from pureness of his heart. Maybe it was accidental but optics is optics. He took the easy way out that is best for him individually, which is understandable but undermined future debate on the question
    - mitxela 12d ago
      Where else would he go? Not many countries don't extradite you to the US for that. US enemies are your only options, and that fact is solely the fault of the US.
      - ShinyLeftPad 12d ago
        Nepal UAE Belarus Mongolia Vietnam Laos Montenegro Indonesia
        marsmaps 12d ago
        the same indonesia in which the us government helped organise mass killings of hundreds of thousands of alleged left-wing political activists and voters? [0] [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/th... 'What the United States Did in Indonesia', The Atlantic
slg 12d ago
Manning and Assange are both free today. Isn't that proof that whether it was reasonable to believe Snowden was correct at the time, history has proved him wrong?
- deleted 12d ago
  [deleted]
- unsungNovelty 12d ago
  Not sure. You are talking about a Snowden in 2013 who looks around and see Chelsea and Assange NOT free. He made the decision based on that and what has happened before. I also think what Snowden exposed is far far far bigger.
- marcus_holmes 12d ago
  Assange is only free because he was not extradited to the USA, and effectively served ~10 years imprisonment anyway. Manning got a presidential pardon. I wouldn't hold either of these up as a shining example of how the USA treats whistleblowers and journalists.
  - lern_too_spel 12d ago
    [flagged]
    - marcus_holmes 12d ago
      Why is the focus always on what these people did, and not on the crimes that they exposed? Why are you saying "if they had done it differently they would be treated better" instead of "I am ashamed of the evil and illegal acts that my country has done and want to change the system to make this impossible"? Why do you care what either of them did more than you care about what the government did?
      - varjag 12d ago
        Which crimes had Manning exposed? There has to be a list somewhere.
judge2020 12d ago
With the right/same lawyer, could've potentially worked out similarly to Kiriakou, who only had a few years behind bars and later became a celebrity due to his interviews.
- defmacr0 12d ago
  "Only had a few years behind bars"
  - Arodex 12d ago
    He's now spent years and is looking at spending the rest of his life in Russia.
Arodex 12d ago
Is Snowden able to talk freely in Russia?
- firesteelrain 12d ago
  About Russia? Nope.
sandblast 11d ago
*Bradley Manning

maxbond 12d ago

If we're going to judge Snowden by the standard that he could've rectified his situation through a radical act of self sacrifice, then every US president has had the opportunity to pardon him and has failed to do so. It's an equally sensible proposition. It's plain to see that no US president would entertain the notion. Similarly, it's not reasonable to expect someone to return from exile without being offered some kind of clemency.

lern_too_spel 12d ago
No radical act of self sacrifice would have been necessary had he only leaked illegal or possibly illegal programs. Instead, he went to Hong Kong and leaked a list of compromised Chinese networks and systems in hopes of getting asylum from China.
- maxbond 12d ago
  That's a very optimistic view of the US justice system's treatment of whistleblowers (surely they would contend that all of their programs were legal), but now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. So I don't see how this helps the case.
  - mannanj 12d ago
    I once publicly stated here that I think some accounts are astroturfers, and I think some are deep state too. I am not making specific accusations.
    - tosapple 12d ago
      i just had that conversation about 'industrial' effort and 'actors', we have recent examples of monetary corruption in the sacklers.
    - MSFT_Edging 12d ago
      For some reason people think psychological operations are some kind of urban legend.