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He didn't "flee" to Russia. His passport was renounced/revoked/disabled while he was on his way to the original destination. He got stuck in the Russian airport
by unsungNovelty 16d ago
He didn't "flee" to Russia. His passport was renounced/revoked/disabled while he was on his way to the original destination. He got stuck in the Russian airport for a freaking long time in a small room while the govt made sure he can't go anywhere else. Good Lord, fled to Russia it seems.
- firesteelrain 16d agoHe could have returned to the US. He chose to exile in Russia. He was already fleeing. I posted a bunch about it below
- unsungNovelty 16d agoSnowden has repeatedly talked about why he wouldn't return to US cos the trial won't be fair. He wanted to be able to talk. But due to his role, the trial would be a muppet one where he can't even talk. Or am I wrong? At the time, look at the situation of Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and the many whistle blowers before Snowden? How can u blame him? Edit: Am unable to reply to comments. HN don't let you comment 2-3 levels in or is it moderation? - Fixed.
- nl 16d agoThe OP was right - avoiding a unfair trial is still fleeing. The word "flee" is not a pejorative in any way. For example flee North Korea all the time.
- unsungNovelty 16d agoNo. It is pejorative in the way it is used. Context is important.
- firesteelrain 16d agoThe problem is he can’t excuse the offense under the Espionage Act because it doesn’t have a public interest defense. One could argue that it should have that defense. But that doesn’t mean the resulting trial would have been a “muppet trial” He could have had counsel, challenged the government, and had a jury decide guilt. It would have been fair. It actually looks worse to flee like he did
- unsungNovelty 16d ago"doesn't have a public interest defence". Can't be serious.
- firesteelrain 16d agoThere isn’t one under the law so no. Why wasn’t the whistleblower process followed? Why didn’t he try to contact his congressman/ senator ? He could have said I don’t want a clearance anymore and disclosed his concerns. He could have reported anonymously even. He wanted public debate and discourse on something that the process didn’t allow
- unsungNovelty 16d agoWhat he exposed was found illegal by US courts. And the govt had to stop it. What more evidence do you want?
- lern_too_spel 16d agoA single program he leaked was illegal. The vast majority was not, including the hacking of Chinese targets that he leaked directly to SCMP.
- deleted 16d ago[deleted]
- anon7000 16d agoI don’t understand. He’s absolutely guilty of violating the US government and probably a handful of laws. I will respect him forever for doing that. But I completely agree that any trial he’d participate in is A) not going to be fair, because why would you trust the government on an issue like this, and B) not really necessary, because he didn’t do anything wrong, even if it was illegal. The only reason to NOT flee is if the government didn’t care about whistleblowers and has amazing protections for them, even in the context of national security. Does it? Maybe you think what he did was morally wrong. Who fucking cares, what the government was and is hiding is even more morally wrong.
- slg 16d agoManning and Assange are both free today. Isn't that proof that whether it was reasonable to believe Snowden was correct at the time, history has proved him wrong?
- deleted 16d ago[deleted]
- unsungNovelty 16d agoNot sure. You are talking about a Snowden in 2013 who looks around and see Chelsea and Assange NOT free. He made the decision based on that and what has happened before. I also think what Snowden exposed is far far far bigger.
- marcus_holmes 16d agoAssange is only free because he was not extradited to the USA, and effectively served ~10 years imprisonment anyway. Manning got a presidential pardon. I wouldn't hold either of these up as a shining example of how the USA treats whistleblowers and journalists.
- lern_too_spel 16d ago[flagged]
- marcus_holmes 16d agoWhy is the focus always on what these people did, and not on the crimes that they exposed? Why are you saying "if they had done it differently they would be treated better" instead of "I am ashamed of the evil and illegal acts that my country has done and want to change the system to make this impossible"? Why do you care what either of them did more than you care about what the government did?
- varjag 16d agoWhich crimes had Manning exposed? There has to be a list somewhere.
- judge2020 16d agoWith the right/same lawyer, could've potentially worked out similarly to Kiriakou, who only had a few years behind bars and later became a celebrity due to his interviews.
- Arodex 16d agoIs Snowden able to talk freely in Russia?
- firesteelrain 16d agoAbout Russia? Nope.
- sandblast 16d ago*Bradley Manning
- maxbond 16d agoIf we're going to judge Snowden by the standard that he could've rectified his situation through a radical act of self sacrifice, then every US president has had the opportunity to pardon him and has failed to do so. It's an equally sensible proposition. It's plain to see that no US president would entertain the notion. Similarly, it's not reasonable to expect someone to return from exile without being offered some kind of clemency.
- lern_too_spel 16d agoNo radical act of self sacrifice would have been necessary had he only leaked illegal or possibly illegal programs. Instead, he went to Hong Kong and leaked a list of compromised Chinese networks and systems in hopes of getting asylum from China.
- maxbond 16d agoThat's a very optimistic view of the US justice system's treatment of whistleblowers (surely they would contend that all of their programs were legal), but now his being granted asylum by Russia isn't evidence but a new incongruous fact we need to explain since the hypothesis is now apparently that he is a Chinese turncoat. So I don't see how this helps the case.
- mannanj 16d agoI once publicly stated here that I think some accounts are astroturfers, and I think some are deep state too. I am not making specific accusations.
- tosapple 16d agoi just had that conversation about 'industrial' effort and 'actors', we have recent examples of monetary corruption in the sacklers.
- MSFT_Edging 16d agoFor some reason people think psychological operations are some kind of urban legend.
- varjag 16d ago[flagged]
- tosapple 16d agothese are potentially the same people that killed epstein? now, i don't believe that but you never know.
- varjag 16d agoNoone in position of power was threatened by the contents of Snowden's leaks.
- sfn42 16d agoHe gave up his life in the US to tell the people what the gov is doing. It's not like he then went and said hey Putin need some help destroying America? He just fled because otherwise the US would throw him in a hole for the rest of his life. What good would that do? It's not about martyrdom it's about getting the information out there. The information is out. Him being in a hole wouldn't do anything good for anyone.
- varjag 16d agoGave up his life? Why, he may have been living his best. A fully funded expat life in Moscow with some Jason Bourne cachet instead of scrapping by as a Sharepoint admin in the age of AI.
- INTPenis 16d agoThat's how it looks at least. It's a good excuse if your goal was always to flee to Russia.
- atemerev 16d agoAs someone who emigrated from Russia and don't want to ever return here (nor I will be able to unless I want to spend my life in jail), I don't understand how anyone could possibly want to voluntarily "flee to Russia". Doesn't compute.
- INTPenis 16d agoWell it sort of hints that Snowden was a Russian agent from the start. And maybe that's why the Snowden documents are not being fully released, because they've gone from responsible disclosure to irresponsible disclosure. I'm 100% convinced the US is evil imperialists, but in this particular case the "Snowden being a Russian agent"-angle isn't finding much resistance.
- atemerev 16d agoIf he was an agent from the start, I doubt we would have learned this much publicly. The materials would have been much more valuable to Russia as pressure points, compared to the public release (yes, of course they spinned it properly, US is watching you and they are hypocrites etc etc, but this was damage control and closure from their part). As a Russian, I am not 100% convinced that US are evil imperialists [at least before 2025]. Have some humility, there are many more evil imperialists. You are probably not even in top 5.
- INTPenis 16d agoI'm actually Swedish lol. But I'm still convinced US are evil imperialists, and the only difference between the US and RU is that US have a stronger cultural influence, which is a huge advantage when they want to anchor their fleet all across the world.
- 16d ago