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leftist != Liberal. And the EU leftists aren't liberal in any real way. That's why terms like left and right don't mean anything outside of a specific place a

leftist != Liberal. And the EU leftists aren't liberal in any real way. That's why terms like left and right don't mean anything outside of a specific place and time and even then, its just shorthand. If they were liberal, none of this would be happening. Being liberal is hard but saying you are liberal is a great way to hide socialist and authoritarian tendencies. And that's the problem. If they were actually liberal, they wouldn't be censoring the Internet. Liberals believe in free speech, socialists don't. Its a big tell as which kind of leftist you are.

js8 12d ago
I am from EU, leftist, socialist and liberal (the left parts), and I can assure you, (a) most leftists (90%) are as liberal and antiauthoritarian as it gets, and (b) we are as powerless to change these things as you are. Possibly, if you choose to believe me, things can change, but it's on you.
- mitxela 12d ago
  Liberal doesn't mean supporting liberty, it means some interpolation between supporting free markets (neoliberal means just this one), and pretending that as long as we just follow the established institutional norms everything is fine and there is no need for radical change. It's synonymous right now for "centrist" - note that political labels drift over time.
  - js8 12d ago
    Liberalism has both economic (free market) roots and political roots. The first "leftists" were the French revolutionaries and they wanted (political) freedom as well. The reason liberalism is in the "center" is because both left and right tried to appropriate it. (Although I think liberalism, in the sense of individual freedom, is a distinct value from other values such as conservative/authoritarian or socialist/communal.)
    - mitxela 12d ago
      Individual freedom absolutism is best refered to as "libertarianism" right now. Which, btw, is a label the right appropriated and the left gave up.
- vixen99 12d ago
  Let's judge them by their actions and then we'll decide.
CursedSilicon 12d ago
It's weird how you say that those terms are meaningless, then redefine them to fit your specific needs
jeltz 12d ago
In the EU the leftists have no significant powers so not sure why we even talk about them here. The EU right now is ran by mostly centrists and right-wingers.

js8 12d ago

I am from EU, leftist, socialist and liberal (the left parts), and I can assure you, (a) most leftists (90%) are as liberal and antiauthoritarian as it gets, and (b) we are as powerless to change these things as you are. Possibly, if you choose to believe me, things can change, but it's on you.

mitxela 12d ago
Liberal doesn't mean supporting liberty, it means some interpolation between supporting free markets (neoliberal means just this one), and pretending that as long as we just follow the established institutional norms everything is fine and there is no need for radical change. It's synonymous right now for "centrist" - note that political labels drift over time.
- js8 12d ago
  Liberalism has both economic (free market) roots and political roots. The first "leftists" were the French revolutionaries and they wanted (political) freedom as well. The reason liberalism is in the "center" is because both left and right tried to appropriate it. (Although I think liberalism, in the sense of individual freedom, is a distinct value from other values such as conservative/authoritarian or socialist/communal.)
  - mitxela 12d ago
    Individual freedom absolutism is best refered to as "libertarianism" right now. Which, btw, is a label the right appropriated and the left gave up.
vixen99 12d ago
Let's judge them by their actions and then we'll decide.

CursedSilicon 12d ago

It's weird how you say that those terms are meaningless, then redefine them to fit your specific needs

jeltz 12d ago

In the EU the leftists have no significant powers so not sure why we even talk about them here. The EU right now is ran by mostly centrists and right-wingers.