4 ms·

Interestingly, when you speak about a category as a whole, in English, you use the null article (“cats meow” or “I like apples”), whereas in French, you would u

Interestingly, when you speak about a category as a whole, in English, you use the null article (“cats meow” or “I like apples”), whereas in French, you would use the definite article (« les chats miaulent », « j’aime les pommes »).

inkyoto 5d ago
«cats» in «cats meow» and «apples» in «I like apples» are not categories, they are bare plural noun phrases with generic reference. They refer generically to members of the relevant class, rather than naming the class itself. Both are count nouns, and, in English, a plural count noun takes the null article when it is used with generic or non-specific indefinite reference rather than to denote a contextually identifiable set. However, in Cat is divided into numerous breeds. Cat excludes animals such as dogs and foxes. Apple excludes such fruits as pears and peaches. Apple contains numerous cultivated varieties. «cat» and «apple» are categories.
- spider-mario 5d ago
  “Cats meow” is “about” the whole of what makes up the category as opposed to parts of it. I thought it quite clear that that’s what I meant. If I ask you “could you please tell me more about Barack Obama?”, I would expect you to tell me about the person that the name “Barack Obama” refers to, not about the name “Barack Obama”.
  - inkyoto 5d ago
    > “Cats meow” is “about” the whole of what makes up the category as opposed to parts of it. No. That is, at best, a highly informal proposition and, at worst, a frivolous disposition masquerading as a definition of «category». Bare plurals can have generic or kind-related interpretations (the one you refer to as «category»); they do not entail reference to every individual member of the class: a mute cat can't meow, and a rotten apple is unlikely to be liked. The Obama analogy illustrates reference vs mention, but that distinction is orthogonal to the actual semantic disagreement.
    - spider-mario 5d ago
      Which itself is completely orthogonal to the point I was making. You can imagine I said “dinosaurs are extinct” and « les dinosaures ont disparu » if that makes you feel better. > That is, at best, a highly informal proposition That’s what it was meant as, yes, since you seemed to be misinterpreting what I was getting at (contents of the category as opposed to meta-commentary about the categorisation). The goal was to clarify, not to publish to an academic journal. > Bare plurals can have generic or kind-related interpretations (the one you refer to as «category»); they do not entail reference to every individual member of the class: a mute cat can't meow, and a rotten apple is unlikely to be liked. Irrelevant.
      - inkyoto 5d ago
        Since categories have been invoked, we are discussing semantics. «As a whole» leaves unclear whether your example means the kind itself, its members generally or every member without exception as they are three distinct interpretations. This is what I have remarked on. «Cats meow» attributes characteristic behaviour to cats generally. «Dinosaurs are extinct» attributes a property to a kind, making it a better example supporting kind reference. The latter also establishes that English bare plurals can denote kinds. Their grammatical form does not guarantee that interpretation: «cats entered the dumpster» concerns individual cats on a particular occasion.
        spider-mario 5d ago
        I never said it guarantees it. I said that when you discuss entire categories, you use one article in English and another in French, along with examples, and it is applicable to all three interpretations, ergo the distinction is immaterial. Whether it is factual to apply those statements to every single member is completely beside the point.
    - spider-mario 5d ago
      Also, > The Obama analogy illustrates reference vs mention, but that distinction is orthogonal to the actual semantic disagreement. It’s orthogonal to what you have shifted your argument to, but in the context of your original objection, I think it was an apt analogy.

inkyoto 5d ago

«cats» in «cats meow» and «apples» in «I like apples» are not categories, they are bare plural noun phrases with generic reference. They refer generically to members of the relevant class, rather than naming the class itself. Both are count nouns, and, in English, a plural count noun takes the null article when it is used with generic or non-specific indefinite reference rather than to denote a contextually identifiable set. However, in Cat is divided into numerous breeds. Cat excludes animals such as dogs and foxes. Apple excludes such fruits as pears and peaches. Apple contains numerous cultivated varieties. «cat» and «apple» are categories.

spider-mario 5d ago
“Cats meow” is “about” the whole of what makes up the category as opposed to parts of it. I thought it quite clear that that’s what I meant. If I ask you “could you please tell me more about Barack Obama?”, I would expect you to tell me about the person that the name “Barack Obama” refers to, not about the name “Barack Obama”.
- inkyoto 5d ago
  > “Cats meow” is “about” the whole of what makes up the category as opposed to parts of it. No. That is, at best, a highly informal proposition and, at worst, a frivolous disposition masquerading as a definition of «category». Bare plurals can have generic or kind-related interpretations (the one you refer to as «category»); they do not entail reference to every individual member of the class: a mute cat can't meow, and a rotten apple is unlikely to be liked. The Obama analogy illustrates reference vs mention, but that distinction is orthogonal to the actual semantic disagreement.
  - spider-mario 5d ago
    Which itself is completely orthogonal to the point I was making. You can imagine I said “dinosaurs are extinct” and « les dinosaures ont disparu » if that makes you feel better. > That is, at best, a highly informal proposition That’s what it was meant as, yes, since you seemed to be misinterpreting what I was getting at (contents of the category as opposed to meta-commentary about the categorisation). The goal was to clarify, not to publish to an academic journal. > Bare plurals can have generic or kind-related interpretations (the one you refer to as «category»); they do not entail reference to every individual member of the class: a mute cat can't meow, and a rotten apple is unlikely to be liked. Irrelevant.
    - inkyoto 5d ago
      Since categories have been invoked, we are discussing semantics. «As a whole» leaves unclear whether your example means the kind itself, its members generally or every member without exception as they are three distinct interpretations. This is what I have remarked on. «Cats meow» attributes characteristic behaviour to cats generally. «Dinosaurs are extinct» attributes a property to a kind, making it a better example supporting kind reference. The latter also establishes that English bare plurals can denote kinds. Their grammatical form does not guarantee that interpretation: «cats entered the dumpster» concerns individual cats on a particular occasion.
      - spider-mario 5d ago
        I never said it guarantees it. I said that when you discuss entire categories, you use one article in English and another in French, along with examples, and it is applicable to all three interpretations, ergo the distinction is immaterial. Whether it is factual to apply those statements to every single member is completely beside the point.
  - spider-mario 5d ago
    Also, > The Obama analogy illustrates reference vs mention, but that distinction is orthogonal to the actual semantic disagreement. It’s orthogonal to what you have shifted your argument to, but in the context of your original objection, I think it was an apt analogy.