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> and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve,

by Tade0 13d ago

> and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve, not some insurmountable challenge.

SoftTalker 12d ago
I'd think that the hydrogen, being much lighter than air, will accumulate at the highest point in the room. Just be sure you have a vent there?
- rcostin2k2 12d ago
  An so, soon you'll be able to put a hydrogen cell into the system ...
- Tade0 12d ago
  Maybe. GP's comment about LFP is highly strange to me, as this type of batteries already passes the puncture test. Li-poly, which are in just about every electronic device, on the other hand...
  - burnt-resistor 12d ago
    Most LFP cells deflagrate under puncture releasing invisible copious hydrogen gas that may or may not ignite. https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555e198ca78df1caa.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555... LiPo packs are rarely used in consumer electronics, they're mostly used in toys and drones as individual pouch packs. NMC is the most common battery chemistry used in consumer electronics. You might be confused because NMC is available in packaging including prismatic, pouch, and cylindrical configurations.
- burnt-resistor 12d ago
  No, that's improper flammable gas management. Constant igniters need to be close enough to all cells to be effective in preventing the creation of a confined space bomb. https://youtu.be/6LbBryib8yY https://youtu.be/6LbBryib8yY https://youtu.be/JWBt6nv8U58 https://youtu.be/JWBt6nv8U58
burnt-resistor 12d ago
> Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged Apples and oranges strawman. In very small quantities that can be managed by simply dumping it overboard using small diameter tubing. Watch the StacheD YT channel about the structures blown up by deflagrating LFP packs because they lacked constant igniters like Megapacks. Also, the Moss Landing LFP fire reignited after 20 months. LFP aren't anywhere close to "safe", they're just relatively safer compared to NMC.
- Tade0 12d ago
  So it is an engineering problem after all. I watched the clip and the youtuber himself says the facility was poorly designed and should not have been built at all. I've read ProLogium's press release when it came out and while their progress is impressive, I don't see their batteries making it to grid storage anytime soon. For one, they don't have the production capacity yet. My bet is that for the time being it's cheaper to just build facilities with good fire prevention measures than have a technology which is just scaling up take over right now.
- ZeroGravitas 12d ago
  I think Moss Landing was NMC as it was an older battery site. These scientists are monitoring the impact on a local wildlife and are finding Nickel, Manganese and Cobalt traces: https://elkhornslough.org/reserve/research/moss-landing-battery-fire/ https://elkhornslough.org/reserve/research/moss-landing-batt...

by Tade0 13d ago

> and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve, not some insurmountable challenge.

SoftTalker 12d ago

I'd think that the hydrogen, being much lighter than air, will accumulate at the highest point in the room. Just be sure you have a vent there?

rcostin2k2 12d ago
An so, soon you'll be able to put a hydrogen cell into the system ...
Tade0 12d ago
Maybe. GP's comment about LFP is highly strange to me, as this type of batteries already passes the puncture test. Li-poly, which are in just about every electronic device, on the other hand...
- burnt-resistor 12d ago
  Most LFP cells deflagrate under puncture releasing invisible copious hydrogen gas that may or may not ignite. https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555e198ca78df1caa.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555... LiPo packs are rarely used in consumer electronics, they're mostly used in toys and drones as individual pouch packs. NMC is the most common battery chemistry used in consumer electronics. You might be confused because NMC is available in packaging including prismatic, pouch, and cylindrical configurations.
burnt-resistor 12d ago
No, that's improper flammable gas management. Constant igniters need to be close enough to all cells to be effective in preventing the creation of a confined space bomb. https://youtu.be/6LbBryib8yY https://youtu.be/6LbBryib8yY https://youtu.be/JWBt6nv8U58 https://youtu.be/JWBt6nv8U58

burnt-resistor 12d ago

> Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged Apples and oranges strawman. In very small quantities that can be managed by simply dumping it overboard using small diameter tubing. Watch the StacheD YT channel about the structures blown up by deflagrating LFP packs because they lacked constant igniters like Megapacks. Also, the Moss Landing LFP fire reignited after 20 months. LFP aren't anywhere close to "safe", they're just relatively safer compared to NMC.

Tade0 12d ago
So it is an engineering problem after all. I watched the clip and the youtuber himself says the facility was poorly designed and should not have been built at all. I've read ProLogium's press release when it came out and while their progress is impressive, I don't see their batteries making it to grid storage anytime soon. For one, they don't have the production capacity yet. My bet is that for the time being it's cheaper to just build facilities with good fire prevention measures than have a technology which is just scaling up take over right now.
ZeroGravitas 12d ago
I think Moss Landing was NMC as it was an older battery site. These scientists are monitoring the impact on a local wildlife and are finding Nickel, Manganese and Cobalt traces: https://elkhornslough.org/reserve/research/moss-landing-battery-fire/ https://elkhornslough.org/reserve/research/moss-landing-batt...