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Humans had completely mastered fire by about 200,000 years ago - after 800,000 years of experimentation. Speech is dated to around 60,000 years ago, though som

Humans had completely mastered fire by about 200,000 years ago - after 800,000 years of experimentation. Speech is dated to around 60,000 years ago, though some say we started down that path 200,000 years ago: right when we mastered fire.

DFHippie 6d ago
How can we date the origin of speech?
- suddenlybananas 6d ago
  You can't really know for sure, but the typical argument (c.f. Chomsky & Berwick) is there was an enormous explosion in "cultural" products then. Before then, we don't see figurative art, and after we see all sorts of crazy things.
  - DFHippie 6d ago
    That's a pretty thin reed. Chomsky does a fair bit of argument by assertion and displays of confidence. And he's committed to this idea that language emerged in one massive mutation and thus functional analyses of language are pointless. This is a weird stance for a scientist to take.
    - suddenlybananas 6d ago
      I don't understand why you are hostile to me explaining the idea. In any case, you can read their book to see the arguments they use (which are not just assertions, anti-chomskyans just ignore or strawman everything he says). For example, it's not a massive mutation, but specifically a very very small one: the theories called "minimalism" for a reason.
      - pixl97 5d ago
        Probably not to you explaining the idea, but to Chomskys ideas that have not been panning out well lately. Genetically is seems it's very unlikely there is a single gene spot that explains human language but a confluence of different factors feeding back into one another in linage we do not have genetic access to at this time. We've done a bit of gene testing around this now, and single gene flips aren't near enough. I think the best analogy would be like playing a video game where you have to flip a number of switched to the correct position to get the system to work together.
        suddenlybananas 5d ago
        Again, I don't think you understand the substance of the claim. Have you read the book? Mutations don't need to be single gene flips and I don't understand why you think Chomsky thinks that. He compares it to the evolution of the first photorecepetive cell, e.g. a qualitative jump, but that the mechanism is likely quite simple in order for that qualitative jump to be possible. People really do flagrantly misrepresent his claims.
- pixl97 5d ago
  Genetic drift between humans and the next closest species to us in the brain an gene areas that seem to affect speech. That includes neanderthal and other hominoid species that are now extinct.
sscaryterry 6d ago
Probably due to the need for profanity after getting burnt.
- slfnflctd 6d ago
  I can't in good conscience upvote short form jokes on HN, but that got a laugh out of me.
- bell-cot 6d ago
  The need for profanity came much earlier - due to smashed thumbs, gouged fingers, etc. while learning to make primitive stone tools.
NotSuspicious 5d ago
How does it make sense to say that speech developed 60 kya when Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam are commonly dated 200+ kya? Not to mention the recent advances within the past few years that more or less prove Neanderthals and Denisovans spoke as well. With that information Homo heidelbergensis almost certainly spoke as well and if I could bet on it, I would advocate that the smart money would be on Homo Erectus having some level of speech too. In fact a recent paper argues that case: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8 It's unfortunately not on SciHub though so I can't attest to it.

DFHippie 6d ago

How can we date the origin of speech?

suddenlybananas 6d ago
You can't really know for sure, but the typical argument (c.f. Chomsky & Berwick) is there was an enormous explosion in "cultural" products then. Before then, we don't see figurative art, and after we see all sorts of crazy things.
- DFHippie 6d ago
  That's a pretty thin reed. Chomsky does a fair bit of argument by assertion and displays of confidence. And he's committed to this idea that language emerged in one massive mutation and thus functional analyses of language are pointless. This is a weird stance for a scientist to take.
  - suddenlybananas 6d ago
    I don't understand why you are hostile to me explaining the idea. In any case, you can read their book to see the arguments they use (which are not just assertions, anti-chomskyans just ignore or strawman everything he says). For example, it's not a massive mutation, but specifically a very very small one: the theories called "minimalism" for a reason.
    - pixl97 5d ago
      Probably not to you explaining the idea, but to Chomskys ideas that have not been panning out well lately. Genetically is seems it's very unlikely there is a single gene spot that explains human language but a confluence of different factors feeding back into one another in linage we do not have genetic access to at this time. We've done a bit of gene testing around this now, and single gene flips aren't near enough. I think the best analogy would be like playing a video game where you have to flip a number of switched to the correct position to get the system to work together.
      - suddenlybananas 5d ago
        Again, I don't think you understand the substance of the claim. Have you read the book? Mutations don't need to be single gene flips and I don't understand why you think Chomsky thinks that. He compares it to the evolution of the first photorecepetive cell, e.g. a qualitative jump, but that the mechanism is likely quite simple in order for that qualitative jump to be possible. People really do flagrantly misrepresent his claims.
pixl97 5d ago
Genetic drift between humans and the next closest species to us in the brain an gene areas that seem to affect speech. That includes neanderthal and other hominoid species that are now extinct.

sscaryterry 6d ago

Probably due to the need for profanity after getting burnt.

slfnflctd 6d ago
I can't in good conscience upvote short form jokes on HN, but that got a laugh out of me.
bell-cot 6d ago
The need for profanity came much earlier - due to smashed thumbs, gouged fingers, etc. while learning to make primitive stone tools.

NotSuspicious 5d ago

How does it make sense to say that speech developed 60 kya when Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam are commonly dated 200+ kya? Not to mention the recent advances within the past few years that more or less prove Neanderthals and Denisovans spoke as well. With that information Homo heidelbergensis almost certainly spoke as well and if I could bet on it, I would advocate that the smart money would be on Homo Erectus having some level of speech too. In fact a recent paper argues that case: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8 It's unfortunately not on SciHub though so I can't attest to it.