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Nope. They can pretend to, of course, and use the language of grief, but if you can't feel the cold bottomless pit that has bored through your gut then you are

Nope. They can pretend to, of course, and use the language of grief, but if you can't feel the cold bottomless pit that has bored through your gut then you aren't really grieving.

card_zero 6d ago
Do whales grieve?
- georgemcbay 6d ago
  > Do whales grieve? Just as much as any human that isn't me, as far as I can tell from all available evidence. So, yes, I absolutely believe they grieve, just like I believe humans who aren't me grieve.
  - nexie 6d ago
    I hope that’s just because you haven’t had a reason to grieve… Either way, hope you are well!
    - georgemcbay 6d ago
      > I hope that’s just because you haven’t had a reason to grieve… Either way, hope you are well! Thanks, stranger. I'm old enough that I have experienced significant grief a few times in my life. Given our mortality, we should welcome some degree of situational grief, as grief is the absence of a previous love that we were lucky enough to experience in the first place. Of course, there are also profoundly unfair versions of grief (like the loss of a child) that I wish nobody (or no whale, for that matter) would ever have to experience.
    - the_af 6d ago
      "That isn't me" in the above comment means "I know I can grieve, but I can only tell indirectly other people can do so as well." It doesn't mean "I've never felt grief".
- stackghost 6d ago
  They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations, though I doubt anyone could say for certain whether they do or don’t
  - card_zero 6d ago
    You could have an alternative explanation: large animals invest lots of food energy in their offspring, and so the slimmest chance that a calf might not be dead is worth lots of effort. Say one in a thousand actually revive. Here's an article about orcas: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64559047 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64559047 It seems that an orca invests so much in a son that it's like an all-or-nothing one way ticket to pass her genes on. (She might get second try later, but the probability is much lower.)
    - pastel8739 6d ago
      You might also argue that although there may be a non-emotional argument for why grieving could be beneficial, it’s possible or even likely that evolution encoded this instinct in something like emotions. Just how evolution encoded the tendency to care for one’s family and community in emotions for humans.
      - card_zero 6d ago
        Yes! Which leads into strange territory, because we can say that attachment is not entirely rational, but is influenced by genes pointing us toward more successful reproduction, without concern for creating knowledge. But then this environment of instincts is the environment we've built up all our cultural store of meaning in, it's the human condition, so the argument can be turned around to say that meaning isn't entirely rational. So even gene-driven attachment isn't meaningless, but at the same time, I don't want to be bullied and herded around emotionally by little nucleic acid spirals just so they can replicate themselves.
  - jibal 6d ago
    > They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations No, they really don't. The article says > indicated an inherent, strong maternal attachment to the calf Yeah, that's not grieving.
Ma8ee 6d ago
How do you know that they don’t? And conversely, how do you know any other human than yourself do?
- RealityVoid 6d ago
  Do books grieve? I ascribe the same kind of interaction to llm's. They work on a different substrate than us and their perception of reality, if there is any, will be wholly different than our perception because of the constraints of the substrate itself. Not to mention the lack of continuity of existence kind of precludes any deeper and more meaningful interactions with the self. I am not saying that they are unable to feel, but at the current structure and ephemeral existance they are unable to do so, they lack the minimum prerequisites.
  - pixl97 6d ago
    >Do books grieve? Is there any ordered state changes occurring in books? >they lack the minimum prerequisites. And these minimum prerequisites are? There are a number of scientists that would love your empirical evidence. >lack of continuity of existence Eh, the lengths of timelines that LLMs can execute for, and this is in singular execution and agentic evolution is ever increasing. There isn't any time based requirements either. For example I can give you all kinds of drugs that turn off and on your conscious awareness and this doesn't stop self interaction when you're awake.

Nope. They can pretend to, of course, and use the language of grief, but if you can't feel the cold bottomless pit that has bored through your gut then you aren't really grieving.

card_zero 6d ago

Do whales grieve?

georgemcbay 6d ago
> Do whales grieve? Just as much as any human that isn't me, as far as I can tell from all available evidence. So, yes, I absolutely believe they grieve, just like I believe humans who aren't me grieve.
- nexie 6d ago
  I hope that’s just because you haven’t had a reason to grieve… Either way, hope you are well!
  - georgemcbay 6d ago
    > I hope that’s just because you haven’t had a reason to grieve… Either way, hope you are well! Thanks, stranger. I'm old enough that I have experienced significant grief a few times in my life. Given our mortality, we should welcome some degree of situational grief, as grief is the absence of a previous love that we were lucky enough to experience in the first place. Of course, there are also profoundly unfair versions of grief (like the loss of a child) that I wish nobody (or no whale, for that matter) would ever have to experience.
  - the_af 6d ago
    "That isn't me" in the above comment means "I know I can grieve, but I can only tell indirectly other people can do so as well." It doesn't mean "I've never felt grief".
stackghost 6d ago
They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations, though I doubt anyone could say for certain whether they do or don’t
- card_zero 6d ago
  You could have an alternative explanation: large animals invest lots of food energy in their offspring, and so the slimmest chance that a calf might not be dead is worth lots of effort. Say one in a thousand actually revive. Here's an article about orcas: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64559047 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64559047 It seems that an orca invests so much in a son that it's like an all-or-nothing one way ticket to pass her genes on. (She might get second try later, but the probability is much lower.)
  - pastel8739 6d ago
    You might also argue that although there may be a non-emotional argument for why grieving could be beneficial, it’s possible or even likely that evolution encoded this instinct in something like emotions. Just how evolution encoded the tendency to care for one’s family and community in emotions for humans.
    - card_zero 6d ago
      Yes! Which leads into strange territory, because we can say that attachment is not entirely rational, but is influenced by genes pointing us toward more successful reproduction, without concern for creating knowledge. But then this environment of instincts is the environment we've built up all our cultural store of meaning in, it's the human condition, so the argument can be turned around to say that meaning isn't entirely rational. So even gene-driven attachment isn't meaningless, but at the same time, I don't want to be bullied and herded around emotionally by little nucleic acid spirals just so they can replicate themselves.
- jibal 6d ago
  > They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations No, they really don't. The article says > indicated an inherent, strong maternal attachment to the calf Yeah, that's not grieving.

Ma8ee 6d ago

How do you know that they don’t? And conversely, how do you know any other human than yourself do?

RealityVoid 6d ago
Do books grieve? I ascribe the same kind of interaction to llm's. They work on a different substrate than us and their perception of reality, if there is any, will be wholly different than our perception because of the constraints of the substrate itself. Not to mention the lack of continuity of existence kind of precludes any deeper and more meaningful interactions with the self. I am not saying that they are unable to feel, but at the current structure and ephemeral existance they are unable to do so, they lack the minimum prerequisites.
- pixl97 6d ago
  >Do books grieve? Is there any ordered state changes occurring in books? >they lack the minimum prerequisites. And these minimum prerequisites are? There are a number of scientists that would love your empirical evidence. >lack of continuity of existence Eh, the lengths of timelines that LLMs can execute for, and this is in singular execution and agentic evolution is ever increasing. There isn't any time based requirements either. For example I can give you all kinds of drugs that turn off and on your conscious awareness and this doesn't stop self interaction when you're awake.