3 ms·

I believe his qualms were with the "hype" in Jev's announcement: specifically calling this kind of model a breakthrough, without crediting previous art, and kee

I believe his qualms were with the "hype" in Jev's announcement: specifically calling this kind of model a breakthrough, without crediting previous art, and keeping everything closed source.

prodigycorp 17d ago
And how is laya previous art? The project was vibecoded and posted yesterday. https://github.com/NandhaKishorM/laya/commits/main/ https://github.com/NandhaKishorM/laya/commits/main/ https://huggingface.co/convaiinnovations/laya/commits/main https://huggingface.co/convaiinnovations/laya/commits/main
- nandakishor_ml 17d ago
  The paper is one year old. https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.01237 https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.01237 https://pypi.org/project/hallunox/ https://pypi.org/project/hallunox/
  - prodigycorp 17d ago
    Excuse me, but calibrating language models to accurately reflect probabilities did not start with you.
    - nandakishor_ml 17d ago
      I didn't claimed it bro it was first. Just shared the findings here.
      - prodigycorp 17d ago
        [flagged]
        nandakishor_ml 17d ago
        just not these jev guys not opensourcing their work
        verdverm 17d ago
        You used a number of not open source projects in your paper, are you equally upset with them for this reason?
  - dcow 17d ago
    [flagged]
    - jeremyjh 17d ago
      Generally they do credit the papers and/or people who developed the theory behind their product.
    - charcircuit 17d ago
      Researchers definitely do get paid for research. That Google company you mention funds research which can be integrated into their products.
      - Matticus_Rex 17d ago
        Sure, researchers get paid when they either do the research under contract or productize the research and sell it themselves. But they don't usually do the latter because that's quite difficult.
        verdverm 17d ago
        Are you grouping academic research funded by grants under the contract category? To me, there is a meaningful difference and I'd add a third category, but I can also see the contract angle
    - potterpie 17d ago
      Ideas are cheap. But the ideas are cheap coming from anyone. The reason some ideas (like JEV's) are taking up our attention (as opposed to Laya's) is not because of their execution ability, but because venture funding now is subbing filling in for execution ability. I do understand your argument to this would be - "welcome to the world!" or "that's just how the world works" - but that does not mean we do not recognize the ideas that came well before "venture funding made it happen". I'd like to remind us all that there is a reason Joseph Liouville took the time to painstakingly review Galois’s chaotic manuscripts to credit him. It matters who did what before everyone else - if you do want to say "ideas are cheap" - we'd need to control for other variables before drawing conclusions.
- prometheus1992 17d ago
  @prodigycorp - reading your comments here on this post - you seem pretty hurt by this post.
  - prodigycorp 17d ago
    Yeah, the reason why I am annoyed by it is because a person (who felt like a burner account of the laya creator) yesterday was haranguing me for saying that projects like this were vibe coded, posting the link to this project. I evaluated this project yesterday and found its claims un-credible. It's literally nothing like jev. That's some context behind why, a day later, I find it annoying that this is somehow the top story on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49752902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49752902
    - prometheus1992 17d ago
      What is jev like? Did they release any research paper? I really think typesafe hired someone to boost their post because there was nothing "Breakthrough" about their product. At least this post has some touch with the reality that this functionality was available a year ago and was well known among ML people.
      - prodigycorp 17d ago
        I can't believe you say in another post that you have experience with bert and yet you don't understand the value of a generalist classifier. Good models take time and effort. There wasn't a good option for satisficers until a few days ago.
        jessrenoir 16d ago
        It is standard discourse on here if you look backwards. Attention is All You Need sounds like a big nothingburger according to this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938082
      - dcow 17d ago
threecheese 17d ago
The hype is kinda nuts; I use X for ML/LLM stuff, and I just can't get away from Jev - even in my Following feed. Even days later 75% of posts are about "how I use typesafe for cooking breakfast!" or Jev clones.
- tcdent 17d ago
  So many different theories on why this is. First, I think comprehensibility is a major part of why certain products grab the interest of the mainstream portions of the market. The 75% of posts in your feed are not from people who evaluate products based on underlying technology. They typically value signal from social reinforcement higher than anything else. This is the same reason why we see people mentioning products instead of technologies, i.e. PlanetScale versus Postgres & Tailscale versus WireGuard. The consumers understand the value proposition, but would have never discovered it without relatable messaging. This isn't a new phenomenon in computer software either; jQuery is probably one of the first examples that I can remember with this sort of texture. The other side is a perception of expertise in a specialty. Software development, especially in AI, has become an incredibly desirable profession, and there are more people than ever racing to be included in it. In my own professional experience I find an excessive amount of entry level talent leveraging the same comprehension of product, but not comprehension of technology to get their foot in the door. A vast majority of the "thought leaders" occupying our feeds are not as well practiced as they claim to be, they're just trying to get a job or raise funding. And finally, AI has brought out a certain amount of desperation in practitioners, for lack of a better term, materializing as an anecdotal, but certainly observable need to remain on the very tip of the news cycle in order to feel well informed. And so, using the dynamics above and many other human social dynamics, we find certain concepts spreading across cohorts that would not normally have a need or a want for these particular techniques, or products, or solutions, but because they feel pressured to remain relevant.
m3kw9 16d ago
if is closed source, how does he know there isn't some breakthrough he doesn't know?
- jmalicki 16d ago
  If it's closed source, how do you know it's not technology given by aliens from the 43rd dimension running on quantum computers enabled by discovering that P=NP and finding a linear time reduction from NP to P? Occam's razor is that it's probably not all that different unless there is some specific reason to believe otherwise.

I believe his qualms were with the "hype" in Jev's announcement: specifically calling this kind of model a breakthrough, without crediting previous art, and keeping everything closed source.

prodigycorp 17d ago

And how is laya previous art? The project was vibecoded and posted yesterday. https://github.com/NandhaKishorM/laya/commits/main/ https://github.com/NandhaKishorM/laya/commits/main/ https://huggingface.co/convaiinnovations/laya/commits/main https://huggingface.co/convaiinnovations/laya/commits/main

nandakishor_ml 17d ago
The paper is one year old. https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.01237 https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.01237 https://pypi.org/project/hallunox/ https://pypi.org/project/hallunox/
- prodigycorp 17d ago
  Excuse me, but calibrating language models to accurately reflect probabilities did not start with you.
  - nandakishor_ml 17d ago
    I didn't claimed it bro it was first. Just shared the findings here.
    - prodigycorp 17d ago
      [flagged]
      - nandakishor_ml 17d ago
        just not these jev guys not opensourcing their work
        verdverm 17d ago
        You used a number of not open source projects in your paper, are you equally upset with them for this reason?
- dcow 17d ago
  [flagged]
  - jeremyjh 17d ago
    Generally they do credit the papers and/or people who developed the theory behind their product.
  - charcircuit 17d ago
    Researchers definitely do get paid for research. That Google company you mention funds research which can be integrated into their products.
    - Matticus_Rex 17d ago
      Sure, researchers get paid when they either do the research under contract or productize the research and sell it themselves. But they don't usually do the latter because that's quite difficult.
      - verdverm 17d ago
        Are you grouping academic research funded by grants under the contract category? To me, there is a meaningful difference and I'd add a third category, but I can also see the contract angle
  - potterpie 17d ago
    Ideas are cheap. But the ideas are cheap coming from anyone. The reason some ideas (like JEV's) are taking up our attention (as opposed to Laya's) is not because of their execution ability, but because venture funding now is subbing filling in for execution ability. I do understand your argument to this would be - "welcome to the world!" or "that's just how the world works" - but that does not mean we do not recognize the ideas that came well before "venture funding made it happen". I'd like to remind us all that there is a reason Joseph Liouville took the time to painstakingly review Galois’s chaotic manuscripts to credit him. It matters who did what before everyone else - if you do want to say "ideas are cheap" - we'd need to control for other variables before drawing conclusions.
prometheus1992 17d ago
@prodigycorp - reading your comments here on this post - you seem pretty hurt by this post.
- prodigycorp 17d ago
  Yeah, the reason why I am annoyed by it is because a person (who felt like a burner account of the laya creator) yesterday was haranguing me for saying that projects like this were vibe coded, posting the link to this project. I evaluated this project yesterday and found its claims un-credible. It's literally nothing like jev. That's some context behind why, a day later, I find it annoying that this is somehow the top story on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49752902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49752902
  - prometheus1992 17d ago
    What is jev like? Did they release any research paper? I really think typesafe hired someone to boost their post because there was nothing "Breakthrough" about their product. At least this post has some touch with the reality that this functionality was available a year ago and was well known among ML people.
    - prodigycorp 17d ago
      I can't believe you say in another post that you have experience with bert and yet you don't understand the value of a generalist classifier. Good models take time and effort. There wasn't a good option for satisficers until a few days ago.
      - jessrenoir 16d ago
        It is standard discourse on here if you look backwards. Attention is All You Need sounds like a big nothingburger according to this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938082
    - dcow 17d ago

threecheese 17d ago

The hype is kinda nuts; I use X for ML/LLM stuff, and I just can't get away from Jev - even in my Following feed. Even days later 75% of posts are about "how I use typesafe for cooking breakfast!" or Jev clones.

tcdent 17d ago
So many different theories on why this is. First, I think comprehensibility is a major part of why certain products grab the interest of the mainstream portions of the market. The 75% of posts in your feed are not from people who evaluate products based on underlying technology. They typically value signal from social reinforcement higher than anything else. This is the same reason why we see people mentioning products instead of technologies, i.e. PlanetScale versus Postgres & Tailscale versus WireGuard. The consumers understand the value proposition, but would have never discovered it without relatable messaging. This isn't a new phenomenon in computer software either; jQuery is probably one of the first examples that I can remember with this sort of texture. The other side is a perception of expertise in a specialty. Software development, especially in AI, has become an incredibly desirable profession, and there are more people than ever racing to be included in it. In my own professional experience I find an excessive amount of entry level talent leveraging the same comprehension of product, but not comprehension of technology to get their foot in the door. A vast majority of the "thought leaders" occupying our feeds are not as well practiced as they claim to be, they're just trying to get a job or raise funding. And finally, AI has brought out a certain amount of desperation in practitioners, for lack of a better term, materializing as an anecdotal, but certainly observable need to remain on the very tip of the news cycle in order to feel well informed. And so, using the dynamics above and many other human social dynamics, we find certain concepts spreading across cohorts that would not normally have a need or a want for these particular techniques, or products, or solutions, but because they feel pressured to remain relevant.

m3kw9 16d ago

if is closed source, how does he know there isn't some breakthrough he doesn't know?

jmalicki 16d ago
If it's closed source, how do you know it's not technology given by aliens from the 43rd dimension running on quantum computers enabled by discovering that P=NP and finding a linear time reduction from NP to P? Occam's razor is that it's probably not all that different unless there is some specific reason to believe otherwise.