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I think it's more that humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive

I think it's more that humans have put a man on the Moon, whereas we're highly impressed with other animals when they are capable of doing something productive with a twig or make gestures or noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication. The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special relative to absolutely everything else we know in this universe. And while consciousness and intelligence are two different concepts, it's not unreasonable to think things which are 'natural' for a human are anything but for other species.

readthenotes1 14d ago
Did humans put a man on the moon using tools or did the USA put a man on the moon using humans?
nvme0n1p1 14d ago
It's no surprise humans are most impressed by human-ish things, selfish as they are. But I bet a chimpanzee would be highly impressed with you if you could survive even a single day in the jungle. > doing something productive with a twig or if you could climb a simple tree > noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication Do you think most animals just... never communicate? Why does it have to be something dumbed down enough that humans can interpret it? I bet a dog would be impressed with you if you could emit a scent that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication. > The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special Not really. They're squishy and weak and quite fragile. Tardigrades are the only exceptional lifeform in this galactic neighborhood.
- PaulHoule 14d ago
  A day in the jungle is easy to survive, a year less so. I don’t know a lot about dogs but cats have specialized scent communication mechanisms that are entirely outside the human range. I mean they tend to leave a streak of ‘cat oil’ around their feeding areas when they rub their cheeks on corners. I stick my nose right into the gland and I sense nothing but the soft touch of fur. On the other hand we do share many languages with cats including general mammal body language (“pointing” at things) as well as what we negotiate, like the yowling cats learn to get our attention.
- somenameforme 14d ago
  These are hardly human-ish things. The reason they're found novel is because their behaviors that demonstrate some basic degree of interaction with the world or each other, outside of pure instinct. And by the standards of most animals, that's impressive. But by the standards of any sort of intelligent being, including humans, these actions are quite absurdly trivial. But for instance if and when we encounter an alien intelligence, it's fairly certain that they will have achieved many of the things that humans have. In fact that will be largely a prerequisite to encountering them. And no a chimp would not be impressed to find tribes of humans living in the forest for millennia, as is already the case. They lack the higher order thinking in order to have such a feeling. If they had it then impression naturally gives way to 'hmmm I wonder if I could do that' and the next thing you know, you'd have chimps on the Moon. Suffice to say, that's not happening now, or ever.
Henchman21 14d ago
I’ve read some hubris on this site, hell probably exhibited it myself. But this? This takes the cake. There are many meatbags on this world that are not human, but are alive, conscious, and intelligent. Crows, dolphins, and so on are the usual suspects. But to place one’s self above all the rest of creation is absurd. We are a part of creation and it is a part of us. Seems to me that consciousness specifically is a property of all life. I am really not sure how one would think otherwise, but I would be pleased to hear the explanation?
- somenameforme 14d ago
  Crows are one example I alluded to above. One of the 'most telling' signs of their intelligence is their ability to stab grubs with twigs. If a human demonstrated that as the peak of his cognitive ability, it would only be due to extreme mental disability. Yet when we see a bird do such a thing, we frame it as an act of brilliance. The reason the bar is set so low is because other species lack any sort of meaningful intelligence, so we find ourselves grasping at straws, or twigs as it may be, to discover it. Even amongst humans I'm not entirely convinced that all are conscious, in the manner that we are speaking. A rather large chunk of humans claim to have no inner dialogue, and there are those that further claim a complete inability to visualize anything. If you're not having an inner dialogue, and lack any visualization ability - what is driving one's behaviors? It's hard to see it as anything other than animalistic instinct - a philosophical zombie. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
  - cindyllm 13d ago
    [dead]

readthenotes1 14d ago

Did humans put a man on the moon using tools or did the USA put a man on the moon using humans?

nvme0n1p1 14d ago

It's no surprise humans are most impressed by human-ish things, selfish as they are. But I bet a chimpanzee would be highly impressed with you if you could survive even a single day in the jungle. > doing something productive with a twig or if you could climb a simple tree > noises that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication Do you think most animals just... never communicate? Why does it have to be something dumbed down enough that humans can interpret it? I bet a dog would be impressed with you if you could emit a scent that can be reasonably interpreted as some form of simple communication. > The point of that is that humans obviously are exceptionally special Not really. They're squishy and weak and quite fragile. Tardigrades are the only exceptional lifeform in this galactic neighborhood.

PaulHoule 14d ago
A day in the jungle is easy to survive, a year less so. I don’t know a lot about dogs but cats have specialized scent communication mechanisms that are entirely outside the human range. I mean they tend to leave a streak of ‘cat oil’ around their feeding areas when they rub their cheeks on corners. I stick my nose right into the gland and I sense nothing but the soft touch of fur. On the other hand we do share many languages with cats including general mammal body language (“pointing” at things) as well as what we negotiate, like the yowling cats learn to get our attention.
somenameforme 14d ago
These are hardly human-ish things. The reason they're found novel is because their behaviors that demonstrate some basic degree of interaction with the world or each other, outside of pure instinct. And by the standards of most animals, that's impressive. But by the standards of any sort of intelligent being, including humans, these actions are quite absurdly trivial. But for instance if and when we encounter an alien intelligence, it's fairly certain that they will have achieved many of the things that humans have. In fact that will be largely a prerequisite to encountering them. And no a chimp would not be impressed to find tribes of humans living in the forest for millennia, as is already the case. They lack the higher order thinking in order to have such a feeling. If they had it then impression naturally gives way to 'hmmm I wonder if I could do that' and the next thing you know, you'd have chimps on the Moon. Suffice to say, that's not happening now, or ever.

Henchman21 14d ago

I’ve read some hubris on this site, hell probably exhibited it myself. But this? This takes the cake. There are many meatbags on this world that are not human, but are alive, conscious, and intelligent. Crows, dolphins, and so on are the usual suspects. But to place one’s self above all the rest of creation is absurd. We are a part of creation and it is a part of us. Seems to me that consciousness specifically is a property of all life. I am really not sure how one would think otherwise, but I would be pleased to hear the explanation?

somenameforme 14d ago
Crows are one example I alluded to above. One of the 'most telling' signs of their intelligence is their ability to stab grubs with twigs. If a human demonstrated that as the peak of his cognitive ability, it would only be due to extreme mental disability. Yet when we see a bird do such a thing, we frame it as an act of brilliance. The reason the bar is set so low is because other species lack any sort of meaningful intelligence, so we find ourselves grasping at straws, or twigs as it may be, to discover it. Even amongst humans I'm not entirely convinced that all are conscious, in the manner that we are speaking. A rather large chunk of humans claim to have no inner dialogue, and there are those that further claim a complete inability to visualize anything. If you're not having an inner dialogue, and lack any visualization ability - what is driving one's behaviors? It's hard to see it as anything other than animalistic instinct - a philosophical zombie. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
- cindyllm 13d ago
  [dead]