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What about nonhuman animals that pass the mirror test, use tools, form social bonds, communicate, learn from one another, have a cultural memory, and mourn thei

by cestith 16d ago

What about nonhuman animals that pass the mirror test, use tools, form social bonds, communicate, learn from one another, have a cultural memory, and mourn their dead? Would you consider those conscious?

card_zero 16d ago
So, not dogs? The mirror test is balls, and "mourning", give me a break, it's anthropomorphism don't you think?
wat10000 16d ago
I have a strong suspicion that a lot of humans aren't conscious. The full p-zombie solipsist theory clearly isn't true, because the concept of consciousness wouldn't have arisen if nobody had it. But that doesn't mean everybody has to have it. Nonhuman animals? No idea. We don't even know how to phrase the question rigorously, let alone how to even conceptualize answering it.
- card_zero 16d ago
  Ha. Well, OK. What do you mean by conscious, though? I think the vast majority of humans understand who they are and what's going on around them, if that's the definition. (The rest are in comas and etc.)
  - wat10000 16d ago
    That's the big question. What do we mean by conscious? I think the key thing is qualia. That is, there's some subjective experience. If you prick us, not only do we bleed, but we feel it. This is pretty vague, which is the whole problem. But if you feel it when you're pricked, you know what I'm talking about. This can't be measured or even observed except from the inside. Nobody even has the slightest idea of how it could be measured, even theoretically. The existence of this phenomenon in people other than myself is something I have to take largely on faith. (But, as I mentioned, not entirely, since the existence of this concept shows at least some other people have it.)
- amenhotep 16d ago
  It would certainly make it less baffling how many people seem to insist they're not aware that they exist when Star Trek transporters etc come up.
- someguynamedq 16d ago
  I do not mean this in an insulting way whatsoever, but have you ever been evaluated for psychopathy? To me it is profoundly obvious that almost all humans are conscious.
  - wat10000 15d ago
    No, and from what I know of the diagnostic criteria, it doesn't fit. The main reason I think this is because there are people who don't seem to get the concept. These threads often have people arguing that consciousness is no big deal, it's just your brain making decisions based on sensory input, etc. I can't imagine an entity with qualia making that sort of argument. This might just be a failure of imagination on my part, but that's what it looks like. It's very tempting to apply this idea to e.g. idiots who stand in the middle of a doorway and chat while others struggle to get past them, but I recognize this is just an irrational desire to diminish people who annoy me in the moment. When you say "almost all," is that just to accommodate people in comas and such? Or does that mean you also think there are people who are walking and talking but don't have consciousness, and you just don't think there are very many?

by cestith 16d ago

card_zero 16d ago

So, not dogs? The mirror test is balls, and "mourning", give me a break, it's anthropomorphism don't you think?

wat10000 16d ago

I have a strong suspicion that a lot of humans aren't conscious. The full p-zombie solipsist theory clearly isn't true, because the concept of consciousness wouldn't have arisen if nobody had it. But that doesn't mean everybody has to have it. Nonhuman animals? No idea. We don't even know how to phrase the question rigorously, let alone how to even conceptualize answering it.

card_zero 16d ago
Ha. Well, OK. What do you mean by conscious, though? I think the vast majority of humans understand who they are and what's going on around them, if that's the definition. (The rest are in comas and etc.)
- wat10000 16d ago
  That's the big question. What do we mean by conscious? I think the key thing is qualia. That is, there's some subjective experience. If you prick us, not only do we bleed, but we feel it. This is pretty vague, which is the whole problem. But if you feel it when you're pricked, you know what I'm talking about. This can't be measured or even observed except from the inside. Nobody even has the slightest idea of how it could be measured, even theoretically. The existence of this phenomenon in people other than myself is something I have to take largely on faith. (But, as I mentioned, not entirely, since the existence of this concept shows at least some other people have it.)
amenhotep 16d ago
It would certainly make it less baffling how many people seem to insist they're not aware that they exist when Star Trek transporters etc come up.
someguynamedq 16d ago
I do not mean this in an insulting way whatsoever, but have you ever been evaluated for psychopathy? To me it is profoundly obvious that almost all humans are conscious.
- wat10000 15d ago
  No, and from what I know of the diagnostic criteria, it doesn't fit. The main reason I think this is because there are people who don't seem to get the concept. These threads often have people arguing that consciousness is no big deal, it's just your brain making decisions based on sensory input, etc. I can't imagine an entity with qualia making that sort of argument. This might just be a failure of imagination on my part, but that's what it looks like. It's very tempting to apply this idea to e.g. idiots who stand in the middle of a doorway and chat while others struggle to get past them, but I recognize this is just an irrational desire to diminish people who annoy me in the moment. When you say "almost all," is that just to accommodate people in comas and such? Or does that mean you also think there are people who are walking and talking but don't have consciousness, and you just don't think there are very many?