4 ms·

If you use the Chinese ones at least the energy comes from solar - aside from that, pick one and see if it solves your problems

yorwba 17d ago
If you use a model hosted in China while it's night there, the energy obviously doesn't come from solar, as there's not enough storage capacity. Even if you use it during daytime, most of the energy still won't come from solar, because the ideal solar power locations in the sparsely-populated west are far from the ideal data center locations in the densely-populated east and there's not enough transmission capacity between them. Additionally, using a Chinese provider doesn't mean the model will be hosted in China, e.g. for Qwen Omni here, the supported regions are: China (Beijing), Singapore, China (Hong Kong), Japan (Tokyo), Germany (Frankfurt), and US (Virginia). https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/qwen-omni#qwen3-8-omni-flash https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/qwen-omni#...
- boltzmann-brain 17d ago
  power capacity coming from solar means that at peak, no new non-solar power plants are needed. it does not mean that at nadir everything is solar. legacy power plants continue working around the clock, it either goes to waste or it goes to things that run at night. that aside, solar also includes storage of energy that comes from solar. you should read up on energy networks.
idiotsecant 17d ago
if you mine 4 tons of coal, anywhere on earth, 1 ton of it will be going to china to be burned to make electricity. China's energy production is extraordinarily dirty, the cleanest part of it is the PR. More than half of the energy they produce is from burning coal. They certainly want to integrate more renewables but they have the same problems with that everyone else does - storage and transmission are expensive and essential for a renewable heavy grid.
paimapi 17d ago
I doubted this but it does look like there's an actual government initiative that mandates 80% clean energy for all new data-center builds: https://www.fastcompany.com/91578780/how-china-is-powering-new-data-centers-with-clean-energy https://www.fastcompany.com/91578780/how-china-is-powering-n... that said, China is also rapidly scaling up coal-fired plants: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-power-plant-carbon-climate-change-ba86e7584e3afe1826eed5cffa25354a https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-power-plant-carbon-cli... those presumably support all of the surrounding infrastructure + people + manufacturing so it's not as if it's truly solar-powered. but it's still handily better than the state-by-state abandonment of clean energy goals here in the US - I lay this out a bit here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49700743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49700743
- yorwba 17d ago
  Note that the 80% are qualified with "inside eight large data center hubs created in China’s “East West Computing Strategy”." Most new data centers are built elsewhere and will use whatever source of energy is most convenient.
  - paimapi 17d ago
    >80% are qualified with "inside eight large data center hubs created in China’s “East West Computing Strategy”." Most new data centers are built elsewhere this is a pedantic misinterpretation of the scope of East Data, West Computing. the hubs are all in tier one cities with the power generation capacity to handle them. each hub is comprised of dozens of data-centers and are the place to build because of large economic incentives, infra guarantees, and university-trained talent living in close proximity see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809924005058 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209580992... >This initiative is expected to accommodate up to 95% of China’s digital data needs through this reorganization >Within a year of implementation, more than 112 new data centers have either been authorized, under construction, or completed across the planned computing hubs this project itself is the thing that has all the other nation states in the world clutching pearls about not supporting their native AI corporations enough. it's something you and everyone else should really familiarize yourself with because it is one of the major items influencing current realpolitik and economic decisions (and is likely going to be the thing that'll lead us to a thrice-in-a-lifetime sized recession but that's a convo for a different day)
ezst 17d ago
> at least the energy comes from solar If by that you misspelled coal, sure https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?country=~CHN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?coun...
- defrost 17d ago
  Coal in China: dropping year in year out for past two decades as percentage of total energy consumption.
  - ezst 17d ago
    And yet, the single vastly dominant source of electricity at around 55%. It's a long way you go and a long shot to call it clean.
    - defrost 17d ago
      And yet dropping - by a series of deliberate 5 year plans with the goal of building out sufficient renewable energy to phase out coal use altogether. Kind of like what absolutely isn't happening with the current US administration.
  - Fizz43 16d ago
    It only started dropping last year and by dropping you mean total % of energy generation because total coal energy production is still going up.
    - defrost 16d ago
      I appreciate the input, maybe tighten up your commentary. Check the source we're discussing: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?country=~CHN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?coun... As you can see it is percentage of coal as part of total energy mix that has been dropping for two decades. As already stated above. Perhaps you missed that? You're correct that absolute tonnage of coal use is still climbing, - but at an ever decreasing rate and was predicted to peak .. of course, thanks to some shenanigans by the Hegseth's of the world that may be deferred for a while, thanks USofA! Of course on the plus side (for the atmosphere) there's been a drop in global fossil fuel consumption, so swings, arrows. China, of course, is still well short of total CO2 tonnage lofted over the past century in comparison with the US - even allowing for a vastly greater population.

yorwba 17d ago

If you use a model hosted in China while it's night there, the energy obviously doesn't come from solar, as there's not enough storage capacity. Even if you use it during daytime, most of the energy still won't come from solar, because the ideal solar power locations in the sparsely-populated west are far from the ideal data center locations in the densely-populated east and there's not enough transmission capacity between them. Additionally, using a Chinese provider doesn't mean the model will be hosted in China, e.g. for Qwen Omni here, the supported regions are: China (Beijing), Singapore, China (Hong Kong), Japan (Tokyo), Germany (Frankfurt), and US (Virginia). https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/qwen-omni#qwen3-8-omni-flash https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/en/model-studio/qwen-omni#...

boltzmann-brain 17d ago
power capacity coming from solar means that at peak, no new non-solar power plants are needed. it does not mean that at nadir everything is solar. legacy power plants continue working around the clock, it either goes to waste or it goes to things that run at night. that aside, solar also includes storage of energy that comes from solar. you should read up on energy networks.

idiotsecant 17d ago

if you mine 4 tons of coal, anywhere on earth, 1 ton of it will be going to china to be burned to make electricity. China's energy production is extraordinarily dirty, the cleanest part of it is the PR. More than half of the energy they produce is from burning coal. They certainly want to integrate more renewables but they have the same problems with that everyone else does - storage and transmission are expensive and essential for a renewable heavy grid.

paimapi 17d ago

I doubted this but it does look like there's an actual government initiative that mandates 80% clean energy for all new data-center builds: https://www.fastcompany.com/91578780/how-china-is-powering-new-data-centers-with-clean-energy https://www.fastcompany.com/91578780/how-china-is-powering-n... that said, China is also rapidly scaling up coal-fired plants: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-power-plant-carbon-climate-change-ba86e7584e3afe1826eed5cffa25354a https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-power-plant-carbon-cli... those presumably support all of the surrounding infrastructure + people + manufacturing so it's not as if it's truly solar-powered. but it's still handily better than the state-by-state abandonment of clean energy goals here in the US - I lay this out a bit here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49700743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49700743

yorwba 17d ago
Note that the 80% are qualified with "inside eight large data center hubs created in China’s “East West Computing Strategy”." Most new data centers are built elsewhere and will use whatever source of energy is most convenient.
- paimapi 17d ago
  >80% are qualified with "inside eight large data center hubs created in China’s “East West Computing Strategy”." Most new data centers are built elsewhere this is a pedantic misinterpretation of the scope of East Data, West Computing. the hubs are all in tier one cities with the power generation capacity to handle them. each hub is comprised of dozens of data-centers and are the place to build because of large economic incentives, infra guarantees, and university-trained talent living in close proximity see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809924005058 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S209580992... >This initiative is expected to accommodate up to 95% of China’s digital data needs through this reorganization >Within a year of implementation, more than 112 new data centers have either been authorized, under construction, or completed across the planned computing hubs this project itself is the thing that has all the other nation states in the world clutching pearls about not supporting their native AI corporations enough. it's something you and everyone else should really familiarize yourself with because it is one of the major items influencing current realpolitik and economic decisions (and is likely going to be the thing that'll lead us to a thrice-in-a-lifetime sized recession but that's a convo for a different day)

ezst 17d ago

> at least the energy comes from solar If by that you misspelled coal, sure https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?country=~CHN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?coun...

defrost 17d ago
Coal in China: dropping year in year out for past two decades as percentage of total energy consumption.
- ezst 17d ago
  And yet, the single vastly dominant source of electricity at around 55%. It's a long way you go and a long shot to call it clean.
  - defrost 17d ago
    And yet dropping - by a series of deliberate 5 year plans with the goal of building out sufficient renewable energy to phase out coal use altogether. Kind of like what absolutely isn't happening with the current US administration.
- Fizz43 16d ago
  It only started dropping last year and by dropping you mean total % of energy generation because total coal energy production is still going up.
  - defrost 16d ago
    I appreciate the input, maybe tighten up your commentary. Check the source we're discussing: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?country=~CHN https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-elec-by-source?coun... As you can see it is percentage of coal as part of total energy mix that has been dropping for two decades. As already stated above. Perhaps you missed that? You're correct that absolute tonnage of coal use is still climbing, - but at an ever decreasing rate and was predicted to peak .. of course, thanks to some shenanigans by the Hegseth's of the world that may be deferred for a while, thanks USofA! Of course on the plus side (for the atmosphere) there's been a drop in global fossil fuel consumption, so swings, arrows. China, of course, is still well short of total CO2 tonnage lofted over the past century in comparison with the US - even allowing for a vastly greater population.