3 ms·

Regeneration of used batteries via electrode–electrolyte interphase dissolution

1 points by dgellow 22d ago

userbinator 20d ago
Just like the periodic news about a new study on a method that makes batteries last effectively forever, this is unlikely to be implemented.
- wolfi1 20d ago
  the problem is rather to automate this and upscale this and I'm not sure how safe this method is. generally speaking if the EU makes battery recycling mandatory it definitely would benefit from a method where you don't have to grind the battery. I see this more as a PoC which can be further explored
  - sandworm101 20d ago
    Oldschool lead-acid batteries need not be destroyed to be recycled. They can, and are, easily disassembled and refurbished. For all the lithium hype, lead-acid remains a valid option for non-mobile applications where storage density is not relevant.
    - theoreticalmal 20d ago
      Where can I get cheap recycled lead acid batteries? I like them more the li-ion because they’re more forgiving to temperature changes and have a much lower chance of catching on fire
      - nabeards 20d ago
        The recycling process isn’t direct battery-to-battery. The lead from old batteries is removed, purified, dried into ingots, then sold back to battery manufacturers to make new batteries. In other words, it’s likely that every lead acid battery you buy is made from recycled batteries. Good rundown of the process here: https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/how-a-lead-battery-is-recycled/ https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/ho...
      - sandworm101 19d ago
        The same place you buy recycled steel and aluminum: anywhere that sells NEW products.
    - fuzzfactor 20d ago
      The process of dying and rejuvenation would be somewhat analogous chemically. In this case the electrode is metallic lead and the electrolyte is water containing sulfuric acid. The electrode-electrolyte "interphase" is a solid coating based on lead sulfate, that forms on the lead plates after extended recharge cycles. This doesn't redissolve very well during use after a while when the electrolyte has become oversaturated with lead ions, and the electrodes have been "replated" so many times. Especially when recharged from near-death. One antique way of restoration without disassembly was to agitate the battery using an industrial vibrator to loosen up the solids, then dump out the (highly toxic lead-containing) electrolyte to physically remove as much sludge as possible. Followed by repeated filling using distilled water, agitation, and dumping until the waste water looks OK. One final fill with DI water (which acts as a very weak electrolyte at this point) and a reverse charge until an amp or two has been reached for a bit, to deplate as much oxidized coating as possible into a virgin solvent. More agitation, dumping, rinsing, and finally replace with fresh acid. Desperate measures for desperate times, not too economical today unless similar wastewater is already being handled in a scale that dwarfs a single battery, and fresh acid is obtained surplus or purchased at bulk pricing as well.
      - mitxela 19d ago
        This sounds more complicated than the existing processes to recycle the acid and the electrodes separately and make new batteries from the raw materials.
        fuzzfactor 19d ago
        Yep, a big similarity to remanufacturing lithium batteries may be having more physical than chemical renewal, where the recycling process focuses on dismantling old and rebuilding new from reclaimed materials. Restoring the functioning of the original electrodes in situ is a bit of a different ordeal. But they're working on it :)
burnt-resistor 20d ago
This isn't really a viable technology because it requires careful invasive chemical injection into risky cell chemistries. Generally, liquid electrolyte and plastic separator NMC, LFP, and LiPo should be banned for all but hobby uses when far safer solid state cells with ceramic separators exist such as those offered by ProLogium. NMC are extremely dangerous under deflagration, and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas that has already blown up many improperly engineered buildings that used them and assumed they were "safe". Real solid state electrolyte chemistries tend to have much slower passivation growth than liquid chemistries.
- Tade0 20d ago
  > and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve, not some insurmountable challenge.
  - SoftTalker 20d ago
    I'd think that the hydrogen, being much lighter than air, will accumulate at the highest point in the room. Just be sure you have a vent there?
    - rcostin2k2 20d ago
      An so, soon you'll be able to put a hydrogen cell into the system ...
    - Tade0 20d ago
      Maybe. GP's comment about LFP is highly strange to me, as this type of batteries already passes the puncture test. Li-poly, which are in just about every electronic device, on the other hand...
      - burnt-resistor 19d ago
        Most LFP cells deflagrate under puncture releasing invisible copious hydrogen gas that may or may not ignite. https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555e198ca78df1caa.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555... LiPo packs are rarely used in consumer electronics, they're mostly used in toys and drones as individual pouch packs. NMC is the most common battery chemistry used in consumer electronics. You might be confused because NMC is available in packaging including prismatic, pouch, and cylindrical configurations.
megan_explains 20d ago
[flagged]
b112 20d ago
Yup, saw this in a documentary. A bunch of tourists were stranded on a desert island, but this professor had them re-energize them with some coconuts and bananas. Longest 3 hour tour ever.
craniumjello 20d ago
Tesla recycling for long time good
lightedman 20d ago
I'm hearing in other chats that this is actually a rehash of a nonsensical recycling attempt done a couple of years ago. So I want to ask a question. What in this study would throw the HN people off as incorrect or raising a flag? Is terminology being used incorrectly? Is data vs shown photographs not quite matching up with what is being stated? I'm no battery expert, so I'm quite curious as to why I'm hearing that this is fake from people that work directly in the battery industry (and they're not big companies, most of them are individuals providing various services, some in recycling, some in custom manufacturing, some in installation.)
- dgellow 19d ago
  What are they saying?

1 points by dgellow 22d ago

Just like the periodic news about a new study on a method that makes batteries last effectively forever, this is unlikely to be implemented.

wolfi1 20d ago
the problem is rather to automate this and upscale this and I'm not sure how safe this method is. generally speaking if the EU makes battery recycling mandatory it definitely would benefit from a method where you don't have to grind the battery. I see this more as a PoC which can be further explored
- sandworm101 20d ago
  Oldschool lead-acid batteries need not be destroyed to be recycled. They can, and are, easily disassembled and refurbished. For all the lithium hype, lead-acid remains a valid option for non-mobile applications where storage density is not relevant.
  - theoreticalmal 20d ago
    Where can I get cheap recycled lead acid batteries? I like them more the li-ion because they’re more forgiving to temperature changes and have a much lower chance of catching on fire
    - nabeards 20d ago
      The recycling process isn’t direct battery-to-battery. The lead from old batteries is removed, purified, dried into ingots, then sold back to battery manufacturers to make new batteries. In other words, it’s likely that every lead acid battery you buy is made from recycled batteries. Good rundown of the process here: https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/how-a-lead-battery-is-recycled/ https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/ho...
    - sandworm101 19d ago
      The same place you buy recycled steel and aluminum: anywhere that sells NEW products.
  - fuzzfactor 20d ago
    The process of dying and rejuvenation would be somewhat analogous chemically. In this case the electrode is metallic lead and the electrolyte is water containing sulfuric acid. The electrode-electrolyte "interphase" is a solid coating based on lead sulfate, that forms on the lead plates after extended recharge cycles. This doesn't redissolve very well during use after a while when the electrolyte has become oversaturated with lead ions, and the electrodes have been "replated" so many times. Especially when recharged from near-death. One antique way of restoration without disassembly was to agitate the battery using an industrial vibrator to loosen up the solids, then dump out the (highly toxic lead-containing) electrolyte to physically remove as much sludge as possible. Followed by repeated filling using distilled water, agitation, and dumping until the waste water looks OK. One final fill with DI water (which acts as a very weak electrolyte at this point) and a reverse charge until an amp or two has been reached for a bit, to deplate as much oxidized coating as possible into a virgin solvent. More agitation, dumping, rinsing, and finally replace with fresh acid. Desperate measures for desperate times, not too economical today unless similar wastewater is already being handled in a scale that dwarfs a single battery, and fresh acid is obtained surplus or purchased at bulk pricing as well.
    - mitxela 19d ago
      This sounds more complicated than the existing processes to recycle the acid and the electrodes separately and make new batteries from the raw materials.
      - fuzzfactor 19d ago
        Yep, a big similarity to remanufacturing lithium batteries may be having more physical than chemical renewal, where the recycling process focuses on dismantling old and rebuilding new from reclaimed materials. Restoring the functioning of the original electrodes in situ is a bit of a different ordeal. But they're working on it :)

burnt-resistor 20d ago

This isn't really a viable technology because it requires careful invasive chemical injection into risky cell chemistries. Generally, liquid electrolyte and plastic separator NMC, LFP, and LiPo should be banned for all but hobby uses when far safer solid state cells with ceramic separators exist such as those offered by ProLogium. NMC are extremely dangerous under deflagration, and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas that has already blown up many improperly engineered buildings that used them and assumed they were "safe". Real solid state electrolyte chemistries tend to have much slower passivation growth than liquid chemistries.

Tade0 20d ago
> and LFP create huge amounts of colorless and odorless hydrogen gas Lead-acid batteries do that while being charged, so it's an engineering problem to solve, not some insurmountable challenge.
- SoftTalker 20d ago
  I'd think that the hydrogen, being much lighter than air, will accumulate at the highest point in the room. Just be sure you have a vent there?
  - rcostin2k2 20d ago
    An so, soon you'll be able to put a hydrogen cell into the system ...
  - Tade0 20d ago
    Maybe. GP's comment about LFP is highly strange to me, as this type of batteries already passes the puncture test. Li-poly, which are in just about every electronic device, on the other hand...
    - burnt-resistor 19d ago
      Most LFP cells deflagrate under puncture releasing invisible copious hydrogen gas that may or may not ignite. https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555e198ca78df1caa.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f9f4/681cf6d36adc72ae643555... LiPo packs are rarely used in consumer electronics, they're mostly used in toys and drones as individual pouch packs. NMC is the most common battery chemistry used in consumer electronics. You might be confused because NMC is available in packaging including prismatic, pouch, and cylindrical configurations.

megan_explains 20d ago

[flagged]

b112 20d ago

Yup, saw this in a documentary. A bunch of tourists were stranded on a desert island, but this professor had them re-energize them with some coconuts and bananas. Longest 3 hour tour ever.

craniumjello 20d ago

Tesla recycling for long time good

lightedman 20d ago

I'm hearing in other chats that this is actually a rehash of a nonsensical recycling attempt done a couple of years ago. So I want to ask a question. What in this study would throw the HN people off as incorrect or raising a flag? Is terminology being used incorrectly? Is data vs shown photographs not quite matching up with what is being stated? I'm no battery expert, so I'm quite curious as to why I'm hearing that this is fake from people that work directly in the battery industry (and they're not big companies, most of them are individuals providing various services, some in recycling, some in custom manufacturing, some in installation.)

dgellow 19d ago
What are they saying?