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The question most of us are asking isn’t “is it useful”, but “is it worth it”. Engaging with these tools involves no small amount of self-debasement and long te

The question most of us are asking isn’t “is it useful”, but “is it worth it”. Engaging with these tools involves no small amount of self-debasement and long term degradation of skills; do I want to sacrifice myself on the altar of productivity? For me the answer is still absolutely resolutely “no”.

akerl_ 16d ago
You’re already using a computer to automate massive amounts of what used to be manual human effort. Why is using AI tools self-debasing or degrading?
- preg_match 16d ago
  Because AI removes you from analytical thinking, and the brain is a muscle. The less you think, the less you are able to think. Programming is inherently analytical and logic-driven. It’s a great brain exercise, even if the code has no value. When you use AI, you lose that exercise. What replaces it isn’t the same. I mean, consider. I can solve a crossword, or I can ask AI to solve the crossword. AI will do it perfectly, and faster too. But which one is better for my brain? What was my goal with solving the crossword, anyway? On the surface it was to find a solution to the crossword. But, maybe, deeper down, the goal was to improve myself in some way. People conflate the improvement of products with the improvement of self. Maybe it’s a result of our consumerist mindset. But the truth is the product can improve greatly, and you can be making it, while you yourself degrade. We write better and better code, at a faster rate, but are we better programmers than before? Maybe, maybe not. I’m leaning maybe not. It’s not new or unique. The assembly line is the same. Sure, I can build better furniture faster at the factory than by hand. But what is the goal here? Is it to make the best furniture, or to become the best carpenter? If it’s to make the best furniture, the best product, then I’ve won. If it’s to become the best carpenter, then I’ve lost heavily.
  - akerl_ 16d ago
    The best carpenter obviously doesn't use any power tools. Are they allowed to use hand tools, or do they need to split the wood with their bare hands? It's not clear to me why programming is inherently analytical and logic-driven but prompting and iterating with an AI is not. What about Applescript, where it's programming but in something closer to natural language? The core of this seems to be that there are people who assume that users of AI turn their brains off the moment they open a Claude prompt. There are surely some people who are doing that, but there were also plenty of people who were shipping sloppy code before. There are far more people for whom this another tool in their toolbox.
  - zahlman 16d ago
    > But, maybe, deeper down, the goal was to improve myself in some way. Or, you know, to pass some time in an enjoyable way. To have fun.
- timacles 16d ago
  I dont know how you can work in this discipline, use AI, and also ask that question. almost every developer i know is fully aware, we are degrading every aspect of our skills. The code writing, code reviewing, code understanding. The more "time" passes and the more the code base grows, the more disconnected we become.
  - jeremyjh 16d ago
    Our horse riding skills have degraded even more.
    - akerl_ 16d ago
      Jokes aside, I think this gets at the core of it. If you really loved horseback riding, or you really loved breeding and training horses, or you were really good at it, I'm sure that cars fucked up your day, and that it sucked to see cars replace horses. I'm sure there were plenty of people who said that cars were horrible and that we should stick with horses. I'm equally sure there have been C programmers looking derisively at Python programmers, Python programmers looking derisively at Node programmers, etc etc. But there's a pretty big gap between the feeling of unhappiness that something you liked is no longer as in-demand / profitable / common / whatever, and saying that cars aren't useful and we're all worse off for letting our horse-riding skills degrade.
      - vermilingua 16d ago
        Lots more people die in car crashes than horse accidents. Good analogy!
        akerl_ 16d ago
        Do they? Horses aren't particularly safe, there's just way fewer of them and they don't travel as many miles.
        queenkjuul 15d ago

akerl_ 16d ago

You’re already using a computer to automate massive amounts of what used to be manual human effort. Why is using AI tools self-debasing or degrading?

preg_match 16d ago
Because AI removes you from analytical thinking, and the brain is a muscle. The less you think, the less you are able to think. Programming is inherently analytical and logic-driven. It’s a great brain exercise, even if the code has no value. When you use AI, you lose that exercise. What replaces it isn’t the same. I mean, consider. I can solve a crossword, or I can ask AI to solve the crossword. AI will do it perfectly, and faster too. But which one is better for my brain? What was my goal with solving the crossword, anyway? On the surface it was to find a solution to the crossword. But, maybe, deeper down, the goal was to improve myself in some way. People conflate the improvement of products with the improvement of self. Maybe it’s a result of our consumerist mindset. But the truth is the product can improve greatly, and you can be making it, while you yourself degrade. We write better and better code, at a faster rate, but are we better programmers than before? Maybe, maybe not. I’m leaning maybe not. It’s not new or unique. The assembly line is the same. Sure, I can build better furniture faster at the factory than by hand. But what is the goal here? Is it to make the best furniture, or to become the best carpenter? If it’s to make the best furniture, the best product, then I’ve won. If it’s to become the best carpenter, then I’ve lost heavily.
- akerl_ 16d ago
  The best carpenter obviously doesn't use any power tools. Are they allowed to use hand tools, or do they need to split the wood with their bare hands? It's not clear to me why programming is inherently analytical and logic-driven but prompting and iterating with an AI is not. What about Applescript, where it's programming but in something closer to natural language? The core of this seems to be that there are people who assume that users of AI turn their brains off the moment they open a Claude prompt. There are surely some people who are doing that, but there were also plenty of people who were shipping sloppy code before. There are far more people for whom this another tool in their toolbox.
- zahlman 16d ago
  > But, maybe, deeper down, the goal was to improve myself in some way. Or, you know, to pass some time in an enjoyable way. To have fun.
timacles 16d ago
I dont know how you can work in this discipline, use AI, and also ask that question. almost every developer i know is fully aware, we are degrading every aspect of our skills. The code writing, code reviewing, code understanding. The more "time" passes and the more the code base grows, the more disconnected we become.
- jeremyjh 16d ago
  Our horse riding skills have degraded even more.
  - akerl_ 16d ago
    Jokes aside, I think this gets at the core of it. If you really loved horseback riding, or you really loved breeding and training horses, or you were really good at it, I'm sure that cars fucked up your day, and that it sucked to see cars replace horses. I'm sure there were plenty of people who said that cars were horrible and that we should stick with horses. I'm equally sure there have been C programmers looking derisively at Python programmers, Python programmers looking derisively at Node programmers, etc etc. But there's a pretty big gap between the feeling of unhappiness that something you liked is no longer as in-demand / profitable / common / whatever, and saying that cars aren't useful and we're all worse off for letting our horse-riding skills degrade.
    - vermilingua 16d ago
      Lots more people die in car crashes than horse accidents. Good analogy!
      - akerl_ 16d ago
        Do they? Horses aren't particularly safe, there's just way fewer of them and they don't travel as many miles.
        queenkjuul 15d ago