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As I said, I'm certain there are specific parts of Catholicism that do exhibit cult-like behaviors. That doesn't mean the Pope is a cult leader in the same way

As I said, I'm certain there are specific parts of Catholicism that do exhibit cult-like behaviors. That doesn't mean the Pope is a cult leader in the same way as Reverend Jones was.

int_19h 8d ago
He is, though. It's just that this particular cult has been around for so long that it's "traditional", kinda like tobacco and alcohol were not counted as "narcotics" in most jurisdictions.
- deleted 8d ago
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- tsimionescu 8d ago
  No, he's not. Just look at the life of an average Catholic person and the life of an average Scientologist, or better yet, the life of an average Jonestown resident before the suicide, and see the obvious differences. Note also how little the life of an average Catholic differs from that of an average non-religious person in the same country. I would be completely fine with saying that there do exist cults operating within the Catholic Church. Arguably, monasteries, especially the more isolated ones, are very much cults, with the cloistered lifestyle, complete dedication to the faith, strict authority, and requirement to cut previous ties to join, plus cutting ties if deciding to leave. I'd even agree that the priesthood constitutes somewhat of a cult, for similar reasons. However, claiming that all of the hundreds of millions of lay Catholic believers are members of a cult is ludicrous.
  - int_19h 7d ago
    Catholics literally believe that Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith ex cathedra. If that's not a cult then what is? Or how about Mormons? Are they a cult or not? If not, were they a cult at some point, and when exactly did they stop being one?
    - tsimionescu 7d ago
      Papal infallibility, at least as it is today, is basically equivalent to the SC having the final word on law in the USA. It simply means that all of the church agrees to recognize his word as final in matters of faith. Not at all uncommon. If he were a cult leader, you would see him abusing this power constantly to reassert his power. Instead, papal bulls are rare, we'll thought out, and generally limited to nuances of the faith, not some capricious overhauls. That's not to say that popes, even the most admired ones in recent times, have not engaged in horrid behaviors that are a detriment to humanity, and also in outright corruption. They've hidden the extent of pedophilia in the priesthood, they preach and run campaigns against condom use in some of the areas worse affected by STDs in the world, they systematically exclude women and LGBT people from the church leadership, and many others. I am not some lover of the pope, and I am an atheist myself. About mormonism I honestly know too little to have a good opinion. It certainly seems to have started as a cult, but no idea if it still is, and even less so when it might have stopped being one.
    - rithdmc 5d ago
      OP shifted from "no one considers them a cult" to "no one I want to believe considers them a cult". I'd engage with that in mind.
rithdmc 8d ago
This 'specific part of Catholicism' was the papal aligned Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. No unusual interpretations, no sects. I feel like your comment here is a 'No True Catholic' style fallacy.
- tsimionescu 8d ago
  Are you claiming that for essentially anyone in, say, Dublin, announcing that they are now an atheist would lead to their family cutting all ties to them? Or are you just saying that family members would generally declare their deep sadness at the news, and seek to convince them that this is a wrong belief and a mistake? The first one is what leaving a cult is like (e.g. if you leave Scientology, most family and friends will be forced by the cult to cut ties, even if they personally wouldn't want to; even more extreme cults may physically prevent you from leaving the compound or even hurt you for the attempt). The second one is just the normal human experience of having opinions and a lifestyle that is not accepted by your family; the same happens to many people if choosing a career their family doesn't approve of, or leaves a job their family considers excellent, or dates someone the family doesn't like, and many other scenarios that have nothing to do with religion.
  - rithdmc 8d ago
    I feel I addressed this in my original post: > don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling. This is also without getting into how many institutions in Ireland were (and many still are) faith based, requiring you to be a member of the church to, for example, attend school. We can agree or disagree that being shunned from your community and denied opportunity because of a belief is controlling, but it's what led to my belief the Roman Catholic Church is a cult. Though to me a lot of it was simply not being allowed to leave.

As I said, I'm certain there are specific parts of Catholicism that do exhibit cult-like behaviors. That doesn't mean the Pope is a cult leader in the same way as Reverend Jones was.

int_19h 8d ago

He is, though. It's just that this particular cult has been around for so long that it's "traditional", kinda like tobacco and alcohol were not counted as "narcotics" in most jurisdictions.

deleted 8d ago
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tsimionescu 8d ago
No, he's not. Just look at the life of an average Catholic person and the life of an average Scientologist, or better yet, the life of an average Jonestown resident before the suicide, and see the obvious differences. Note also how little the life of an average Catholic differs from that of an average non-religious person in the same country. I would be completely fine with saying that there do exist cults operating within the Catholic Church. Arguably, monasteries, especially the more isolated ones, are very much cults, with the cloistered lifestyle, complete dedication to the faith, strict authority, and requirement to cut previous ties to join, plus cutting ties if deciding to leave. I'd even agree that the priesthood constitutes somewhat of a cult, for similar reasons. However, claiming that all of the hundreds of millions of lay Catholic believers are members of a cult is ludicrous.
- int_19h 7d ago
  Catholics literally believe that Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith ex cathedra. If that's not a cult then what is? Or how about Mormons? Are they a cult or not? If not, were they a cult at some point, and when exactly did they stop being one?
  - tsimionescu 7d ago
    Papal infallibility, at least as it is today, is basically equivalent to the SC having the final word on law in the USA. It simply means that all of the church agrees to recognize his word as final in matters of faith. Not at all uncommon. If he were a cult leader, you would see him abusing this power constantly to reassert his power. Instead, papal bulls are rare, we'll thought out, and generally limited to nuances of the faith, not some capricious overhauls. That's not to say that popes, even the most admired ones in recent times, have not engaged in horrid behaviors that are a detriment to humanity, and also in outright corruption. They've hidden the extent of pedophilia in the priesthood, they preach and run campaigns against condom use in some of the areas worse affected by STDs in the world, they systematically exclude women and LGBT people from the church leadership, and many others. I am not some lover of the pope, and I am an atheist myself. About mormonism I honestly know too little to have a good opinion. It certainly seems to have started as a cult, but no idea if it still is, and even less so when it might have stopped being one.
  - rithdmc 5d ago
    OP shifted from "no one considers them a cult" to "no one I want to believe considers them a cult". I'd engage with that in mind.

rithdmc 8d ago

This 'specific part of Catholicism' was the papal aligned Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. No unusual interpretations, no sects. I feel like your comment here is a 'No True Catholic' style fallacy.

tsimionescu 8d ago
Are you claiming that for essentially anyone in, say, Dublin, announcing that they are now an atheist would lead to their family cutting all ties to them? Or are you just saying that family members would generally declare their deep sadness at the news, and seek to convince them that this is a wrong belief and a mistake? The first one is what leaving a cult is like (e.g. if you leave Scientology, most family and friends will be forced by the cult to cut ties, even if they personally wouldn't want to; even more extreme cults may physically prevent you from leaving the compound or even hurt you for the attempt). The second one is just the normal human experience of having opinions and a lifestyle that is not accepted by your family; the same happens to many people if choosing a career their family doesn't approve of, or leaves a job their family considers excellent, or dates someone the family doesn't like, and many other scenarios that have nothing to do with religion.
- rithdmc 8d ago
  I feel I addressed this in my original post: > don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling. This is also without getting into how many institutions in Ireland were (and many still are) faith based, requiring you to be a member of the church to, for example, attend school. We can agree or disagree that being shunned from your community and denied opportunity because of a belief is controlling, but it's what led to my belief the Roman Catholic Church is a cult. Though to me a lot of it was simply not being allowed to leave.