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RMS was correct, as usual. Of course he could not have predicted the additional 1 million deaths due to military action (and estimated 3.5 million more from sub

RMS was correct, as usual. Of course he could not have predicted the additional 1 million deaths due to military action (and estimated 3.5 million more from subsequent effects) in the resulting Middle Eastern/Central Asian conflicts over the following years.

boxed 16d ago
[flagged]
- zardo 16d ago
  The high infant death rates in Iraq prior to the global war on terror were also the result of US intervention (by liberals btw). https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira...
- deleted 16d ago
  [deleted]
- toyg 16d ago
  I'm sorry, since when George W. Bush and Donald Trump are "Western liberals"? Western, sure - liberals, the fuck.
  - UncleSlacky 16d ago
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism : "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law." Technically both major parties in the US are liberal parties, it's a "liberal democracy" where they both share a certain set of beliefs, though they may differ on the details. Only in the US is the word used as a slur by one party towards the other.
    - _heimdall 16d ago
      And ironically, neither party uses the word in a way that matches definition. The DNC platform isn't particularly liberal, and is moving further from it as/if the DSA gets more of a footing. The RNC complains of "the liberals" are most often complains about policies and ideas that would be more socialist (in the real Marxist sense) than liberal.
    - iamnothere 16d ago
      Thank you, good to see someone who actually knows what the word means. Sibling comment is correct too, the term has been misused and muddied in the US since the 1930s, and it no longer has a coherent meaning here. (If you mean “Democrats” then just use that term.)
    - toyg 15d ago
      I'm European, I know this very well. And still, the absolutist/dictatorial streak in Donald Trump's philosophy of government is something that XIX century liberals would simply abhor. He doesn't believe in consent (and not just "of the governed"), he doesn't believe in individual rights beyond his own... Even just his successful legal moves to obtain full immunity is the exact opposite of "equality before the law". (I also disagree that the two US parties share "a certain set of beliefs". This might have been true 15 years ago, but after the Trump takeover it's becoming increasingly difficult to see any common principles between any other party and what is effectively a satrapy.) George W. Bush's administration already showed a streak for dictatorial rule that had nothing to do with classic liberalism; Trump took that to extremes. Classic liberalism developed in opposition to absolutist monarchies, promoting rule by parliament - Bush and Trump did the exact opposite. They are not classic liberals by any stretch.
- deleted 16d ago
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- iamnothere 16d ago
  [flagged]
  - redsocksfan45 16d ago
    [dead]
- didibus 16d ago
  Can you explain what you mean?
  - boxed 13d ago
    I mean that the deaths are always counted because they are easy to count. But saved lives are not counted because they are harder to count. Look at Korea for example. The death toll in the Korean War is easy to count, and in this case we can see that the armistice was hugely damaging to koreans (namely to the north koreans). We seldom get such clean math as North/South Korea though.

boxed 16d ago

[flagged]

zardo 16d ago
The high infant death rates in Iraq prior to the global war on terror were also the result of US intervention (by liberals btw). https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira...
deleted 16d ago
[deleted]
toyg 16d ago
I'm sorry, since when George W. Bush and Donald Trump are "Western liberals"? Western, sure - liberals, the fuck.
- UncleSlacky 16d ago
  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism : "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law." Technically both major parties in the US are liberal parties, it's a "liberal democracy" where they both share a certain set of beliefs, though they may differ on the details. Only in the US is the word used as a slur by one party towards the other.
  - _heimdall 16d ago
    And ironically, neither party uses the word in a way that matches definition. The DNC platform isn't particularly liberal, and is moving further from it as/if the DSA gets more of a footing. The RNC complains of "the liberals" are most often complains about policies and ideas that would be more socialist (in the real Marxist sense) than liberal.
  - iamnothere 16d ago
    Thank you, good to see someone who actually knows what the word means. Sibling comment is correct too, the term has been misused and muddied in the US since the 1930s, and it no longer has a coherent meaning here. (If you mean “Democrats” then just use that term.)
  - toyg 15d ago
    I'm European, I know this very well. And still, the absolutist/dictatorial streak in Donald Trump's philosophy of government is something that XIX century liberals would simply abhor. He doesn't believe in consent (and not just "of the governed"), he doesn't believe in individual rights beyond his own... Even just his successful legal moves to obtain full immunity is the exact opposite of "equality before the law". (I also disagree that the two US parties share "a certain set of beliefs". This might have been true 15 years ago, but after the Trump takeover it's becoming increasingly difficult to see any common principles between any other party and what is effectively a satrapy.) George W. Bush's administration already showed a streak for dictatorial rule that had nothing to do with classic liberalism; Trump took that to extremes. Classic liberalism developed in opposition to absolutist monarchies, promoting rule by parliament - Bush and Trump did the exact opposite. They are not classic liberals by any stretch.
deleted 16d ago
[deleted]
iamnothere 16d ago
[flagged]
- redsocksfan45 16d ago
  [dead]
didibus 16d ago
Can you explain what you mean?
- boxed 13d ago
  I mean that the deaths are always counted because they are easy to count. But saved lives are not counted because they are harder to count. Look at Korea for example. The death toll in the Korean War is easy to count, and in this case we can see that the armistice was hugely damaging to koreans (namely to the north koreans). We seldom get such clean math as North/South Korea though.