3 ms·

Sometimes I wonder if this is a personality thing. It has never occurred to me to anthropomorphize these things. But it seems like a huge number of people strug

Sometimes I wonder if this is a personality thing. It has never occurred to me to anthropomorphize these things. But it seems like a huge number of people struggle with this.

Retr0id 17d ago
I suspect harness and usage modality is a big factor. Personally I disable all "memory" features wherever possible. I don't want the LLM to "get to know me", or any illusion thereof, which I assume helps with not anthropomorphizing it.
- sanderjd 17d ago
  I use memory all the time so that I can ask it about things. That doesn't mean it "knows me" any more than my notes documents do, it's just more convenient to search.
  - zephen 17d ago
    > That doesn't mean it "knows me" any more than my notes documents do But are you happy handing over your notes documents to mass aggregators of information?
    - sanderjd 17d ago
      In general, yes.
      - zephen 17d ago
        I'd be happy doing it 99.99% of the time myself, but I don't want to form the habit to think it's a good thing to do.
        sanderjd 16d ago
        Yeah I don't think we disagree that much about this. But I'm not really worried about this particular habit forming risk. I can see where you're coming from though.
- zephen 17d ago
  I do the same. But frankly, I mostly use (greenfield, non-remembering) LLMs directly to counteract the enshittification of search brought on by attempts to use AI to remember things about me (and especially to sell me things). This works well for me because (a) I'm usually using my desktop, and (b) I'm a touch-typist. I want to say that my search results have gotten back to where they were a decade or more ago by doing this, even though I often have to give a couple of prompts in order to get the LLM to provide me a useful link.
  - sanderjd 17d ago
    I guess I'm also pretty skeptical of the "automatically remember things about me" functionality. But I really like being able to say "hey make sure to remember this fact" and being able to ask about those things later.
    - rsfern 17d ago
      For me the convenience of “hey remember this fact” is outweighed by a desire not to get stuck in a search or context bubble. It might be nice to have better UI to control which bits of history get added to the context of a chat, but then just use a coding harness instead of web UI
      - sanderjd 17d ago
        Maybe. But I don't just use it for coding. For instance one thing I use it for is helping me track and evolve my workouts over time. It helps that it can remember the weight and number of reps I did the previous time. I could make an app for this, but it works well to do it purely within chat, with memory, and that's convenient. This is just an example, I use it this way for a number of things. I'm not going to use a coding harness for this kind of trivial use case!
zephen 17d ago
My daughter is a pediatrician and just gave a talk on mental health problems (including suicides) brought on by the sort of personality that succumbs to this. I find it interesting. For most of my life, I have gotten on well with (well-designed) machines. I'm the sort of guy who, when they bring me in to show me what's broken, it works in front of me. Maybe I get on with well-designed machines better than people. Because people are never well-designed. So, when LLMs are working properly, I get along well with them, but when they're not, I'm unhappy. But I never confuse any of my machines for people.
- sanderjd 17d ago
  Yeah to me it's just "oh what a nice interface for compressing information and accessing it upon request!", not at all "I'm talking to a person". But I dunno, maybe we're the weird ones.
  - zephen 17d ago
    I know I'm weird. I remember watching my brother get frustrated with a dysfunctional remote control. He threw it forcefully enough at a stone fireplace to shatter it. From my perspective, that, in and of itself, is a mild form of anthropomorphism — trying to inflict pain on the object.
    - andrewflnr 17d ago
      That's a very... bleak perspective on your brother's motives. Sometimes you just want to get rid of an object that causes frustration. When that attitude is applied to humans, we usually call it a symptom of dehumanization.
      - zephen 17d ago
        > That's a very... bleak perspective on your brother's motives. Well, it may have been an overstatement, but not by much. Look, I have anger issues, but I never get angry at things because they are never trying to hurt me, and nothing good can come of it. I could probably fix most remote control issues (e.g. bad battery contact), but not after it's been smashed. I also tend to feel the same way about, e.g., a rabid dog or vermin. Get rid of them, but not in anger.
coffeefirst 17d ago
Yes. It’s called the ELIZA Effect. It’s fascinating, and arguably the most dangerous thing about these models given how many people it seems to affect.

Sometimes I wonder if this is a personality thing. It has never occurred to me to anthropomorphize these things. But it seems like a huge number of people struggle with this.

Retr0id 17d ago

I suspect harness and usage modality is a big factor. Personally I disable all "memory" features wherever possible. I don't want the LLM to "get to know me", or any illusion thereof, which I assume helps with not anthropomorphizing it.

sanderjd 17d ago
I use memory all the time so that I can ask it about things. That doesn't mean it "knows me" any more than my notes documents do, it's just more convenient to search.
- zephen 17d ago
  > That doesn't mean it "knows me" any more than my notes documents do But are you happy handing over your notes documents to mass aggregators of information?
  - sanderjd 17d ago
    In general, yes.
    - zephen 17d ago
      I'd be happy doing it 99.99% of the time myself, but I don't want to form the habit to think it's a good thing to do.
      - sanderjd 16d ago
        Yeah I don't think we disagree that much about this. But I'm not really worried about this particular habit forming risk. I can see where you're coming from though.
zephen 17d ago
I do the same. But frankly, I mostly use (greenfield, non-remembering) LLMs directly to counteract the enshittification of search brought on by attempts to use AI to remember things about me (and especially to sell me things). This works well for me because (a) I'm usually using my desktop, and (b) I'm a touch-typist. I want to say that my search results have gotten back to where they were a decade or more ago by doing this, even though I often have to give a couple of prompts in order to get the LLM to provide me a useful link.
- sanderjd 17d ago
  I guess I'm also pretty skeptical of the "automatically remember things about me" functionality. But I really like being able to say "hey make sure to remember this fact" and being able to ask about those things later.
  - rsfern 17d ago
    For me the convenience of “hey remember this fact” is outweighed by a desire not to get stuck in a search or context bubble. It might be nice to have better UI to control which bits of history get added to the context of a chat, but then just use a coding harness instead of web UI
    - sanderjd 17d ago
      Maybe. But I don't just use it for coding. For instance one thing I use it for is helping me track and evolve my workouts over time. It helps that it can remember the weight and number of reps I did the previous time. I could make an app for this, but it works well to do it purely within chat, with memory, and that's convenient. This is just an example, I use it this way for a number of things. I'm not going to use a coding harness for this kind of trivial use case!

zephen 17d ago

My daughter is a pediatrician and just gave a talk on mental health problems (including suicides) brought on by the sort of personality that succumbs to this. I find it interesting. For most of my life, I have gotten on well with (well-designed) machines. I'm the sort of guy who, when they bring me in to show me what's broken, it works in front of me. Maybe I get on with well-designed machines better than people. Because people are never well-designed. So, when LLMs are working properly, I get along well with them, but when they're not, I'm unhappy. But I never confuse any of my machines for people.

sanderjd 17d ago
Yeah to me it's just "oh what a nice interface for compressing information and accessing it upon request!", not at all "I'm talking to a person". But I dunno, maybe we're the weird ones.
- zephen 17d ago
  I know I'm weird. I remember watching my brother get frustrated with a dysfunctional remote control. He threw it forcefully enough at a stone fireplace to shatter it. From my perspective, that, in and of itself, is a mild form of anthropomorphism — trying to inflict pain on the object.
  - andrewflnr 17d ago
    That's a very... bleak perspective on your brother's motives. Sometimes you just want to get rid of an object that causes frustration. When that attitude is applied to humans, we usually call it a symptom of dehumanization.
    - zephen 17d ago
      > That's a very... bleak perspective on your brother's motives. Well, it may have been an overstatement, but not by much. Look, I have anger issues, but I never get angry at things because they are never trying to hurt me, and nothing good can come of it. I could probably fix most remote control issues (e.g. bad battery contact), but not after it's been smashed. I also tend to feel the same way about, e.g., a rabid dog or vermin. Get rid of them, but not in anger.

coffeefirst 17d ago

Yes. It’s called the ELIZA Effect. It’s fascinating, and arguably the most dangerous thing about these models given how many people it seems to affect.