3 ms·

I'd like to see the studies which confirm that kingship (i.e. rule by the most mighty hunter or warrior) and violence is universal and did not explode about 500

I'd like to see the studies which confirm that kingship (i.e. rule by the most mighty hunter or warrior) and violence is universal and did not explode about 5000 years ago, because that all seems to me like a mere extrapolation of the 19th century imagination of the default human condition as being "nasty, brutish, short." =) Some interesting texts: * The Harmless People (a classic) * Hierarchy in the Forest * Hunter-Gatherers of the Congo Basin * The Foraging Spectrum

willmarch 17d ago
I appreciate the references but I'm guessing they don't fully support the claims you made above, at least not as strongly as you're making them seem. While they talk about egalitarianism and resisting domineering members, and various organizational structures, they don't establish that people followed "correct" individuals or that violence increases with increased population growth/agriculture/weapons. I think I'm safe to say that there is plenty of evidence for violence that predates agriculture and modern society, even if agriculture and nation-states increased the scale and visibility of such violence overall. I think replacing "nasty, brutish, and short" with its opposite "noble savage" ideal is probably just as mistaken of a projection from literature. Human nature doesn't seem to change much throughout history, tools might just make that violence more efficient and more visible. I don't think your thesis is fully wrong, but I don't think it is fully right either, which was my point in pushing back against the earlier statements you made.
- alchemism 14d ago
  Don’t worry, there is nothing inherently “noble” at all about a matriarchy which enforces compliance through liberal permission for rape. Maybe more a matter of scale, a tribal raid versus the siege, sack, and rape of an entire city. The individualist warfare of The Illiad; then later the Roman Legions, then later Mongol Horde. The hints of egalitarian structures are found deep in enthographic interviews of tribes which have no visible hierarchy: it is invisible, if so how does it operate?

willmarch 17d ago

I appreciate the references but I'm guessing they don't fully support the claims you made above, at least not as strongly as you're making them seem. While they talk about egalitarianism and resisting domineering members, and various organizational structures, they don't establish that people followed "correct" individuals or that violence increases with increased population growth/agriculture/weapons. I think I'm safe to say that there is plenty of evidence for violence that predates agriculture and modern society, even if agriculture and nation-states increased the scale and visibility of such violence overall. I think replacing "nasty, brutish, and short" with its opposite "noble savage" ideal is probably just as mistaken of a projection from literature. Human nature doesn't seem to change much throughout history, tools might just make that violence more efficient and more visible. I don't think your thesis is fully wrong, but I don't think it is fully right either, which was my point in pushing back against the earlier statements you made.

alchemism 14d ago
Don’t worry, there is nothing inherently “noble” at all about a matriarchy which enforces compliance through liberal permission for rape. Maybe more a matter of scale, a tribal raid versus the siege, sack, and rape of an entire city. The individualist warfare of The Illiad; then later the Roman Legions, then later Mongol Horde. The hints of egalitarian structures are found deep in enthographic interviews of tribes which have no visible hierarchy: it is invisible, if so how does it operate?