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No, actually, I hadn't; I'm nominally on vacation. What I'm about to say is intellectually sloppy. But Varsavsky's facts are not terribly important. His poin

by Vivtek 14y ago

No, actually, I hadn't; I'm nominally on vacation. What I'm about to say is intellectually sloppy. But Varsavsky's facts are not terribly important. His point about German startups was true at one time, and is no longer true, but his larger point about legal requirements for the workplace being strict in Europe and essentially non-existent in America is true. His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. His post is not directed towards Europeans. It is directed towards American entrepreneurs who are looking at Europe - and could come to Europe with vastly incorrect assumptions about what it means to start and run a business here. Along the way, sure, he makes some pretty generalized points about business in Europe that may be less than accurate. The "no new valuable businesses" point is a little off and to my mind not even the point. But what he is actually saying is that, should you want to start a startup in Europe as an American, here are some things you should know in advance, and here are some reasons you might want to do it despite a risk profile that is entirely different. The diversity of Europe doesn't even matter in this context, except as a reason Americans might like to live here. And OP's point that the income diversity between Scandinavia and Russia is really beside the point. The point is that the European middle class is healthier than the American middle class, and if you can steer around the problem that they speak fifty different languages, you've actually got a bigger market for consumer goods and services here than in the States - and that's a weird and unusual thought that I, personally, found quite inspiring.

Xylakant 14y ago
That's something I already mentioned in the discussion about the original post: There are some interesting facts and some valid generalizations about europe, especially when you compare europe to america. The problem is not discussing these, but those are very very high level - even more high-level than generalizations about the USA. The problem is selling specifics as general truth which is what he does in large parts of his post. I'm not wearing leather trousers while posting this, despite being a mere 200 km from the Weisswurstäquator. Btw: The point about a larger market is an interesting notion, but don't forget that you might just as well sell to canadians, middle and south america and you'd have a larger, even more unified market. That's exactly where the european diversity matters: It's hard to sell to france as a german startup and they other way round. So to get around that you actually need to serve a fragmented market with different rules and regulations for each fragment. See for example how last.fm radio was available in selected countries only or spotify as well.
DanBC 14y ago
> His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. In the UK an entrepreneur can set up a LTD company which limits personal liability. The EU has had limited liability for traders since 1989. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability) > In 1989, the European Union enacted its Twelfth Council Company Law Directive, requiring that member states make available legal structures for individuals to trade with limited liability. This was implemented in England and Wales by Statutory Instrument SI 1992/1699 which allowed single-member limited-liability companies. This is just one small example of something which is factually incorrect. It's not a matter of opinion; it's not shades of grey; it's not one person's impressions of a country. A statement was made; that statement is wrong. There are many others in the original article. Scattering these errors in an opinion piece gave it the feel of a shallow attack piece. > His post is not directed towards Europeans. It is directed towards American entrepreneurs who are looking at Europe - and could come to Europe with vastly incorrect assumptions about what it means to start and run a business here. They're definitely going to have vastly incorrect assumptions if they believe everything in that article!
- danmaz74 14y ago
  Yes - and, very important when we talk about the EU, any EU citizen can set up a UK LTD company, if s/he wants to. It is true that there still are many differences in legislation between EU countries, but the EU is gradually standardizing laws in many fields.
- rmc 14y ago
  In the UK an entrepreneur can set up a LTD company which limits personal liability. Pedantically, the UK allowed limited liability companies for about 150 years. This is not a new thing.
jeltz 14y ago
> His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. Not sure what you refer to here since as far as I know most European countries have provided limited liability companies to entrepreneurs since the 19th century. I know for sure Sweden has has them since 1848. EDIT: Read the original article and it seemed to talk about failure to pay social charges for employees being a criminal liability. That may or may not be the case in Spain, but at leats in Sweden it is no different from failing to pay salaries in general. If you cannot pay what you owe you have to bankrupt your company and the government will pay the salaries. If they think you did it for fraudulent reasons they might press charges against you personally, but that is rare.

by Vivtek 14y ago

Xylakant 14y ago

That's something I already mentioned in the discussion about the original post: There are some interesting facts and some valid generalizations about europe, especially when you compare europe to america. The problem is not discussing these, but those are very very high level - even more high-level than generalizations about the USA. The problem is selling specifics as general truth which is what he does in large parts of his post. I'm not wearing leather trousers while posting this, despite being a mere 200 km from the Weisswurstäquator. Btw: The point about a larger market is an interesting notion, but don't forget that you might just as well sell to canadians, middle and south america and you'd have a larger, even more unified market. That's exactly where the european diversity matters: It's hard to sell to france as a german startup and they other way round. So to get around that you actually need to serve a fragmented market with different rules and regulations for each fragment. See for example how last.fm radio was available in selected countries only or spotify as well.

DanBC 14y ago

> His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. In the UK an entrepreneur can set up a LTD company which limits personal liability. The EU has had limited liability for traders since 1989. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability) > In 1989, the European Union enacted its Twelfth Council Company Law Directive, requiring that member states make available legal structures for individuals to trade with limited liability. This was implemented in England and Wales by Statutory Instrument SI 1992/1699 which allowed single-member limited-liability companies. This is just one small example of something which is factually incorrect. It's not a matter of opinion; it's not shades of grey; it's not one person's impressions of a country. A statement was made; that statement is wrong. There are many others in the original article. Scattering these errors in an opinion piece gave it the feel of a shallow attack piece. > His post is not directed towards Europeans. It is directed towards American entrepreneurs who are looking at Europe - and could come to Europe with vastly incorrect assumptions about what it means to start and run a business here. They're definitely going to have vastly incorrect assumptions if they believe everything in that article!

danmaz74 14y ago
Yes - and, very important when we talk about the EU, any EU citizen can set up a UK LTD company, if s/he wants to. It is true that there still are many differences in legislation between EU countries, but the EU is gradually standardizing laws in many fields.
rmc 14y ago
In the UK an entrepreneur can set up a LTD company which limits personal liability. Pedantically, the UK allowed limited liability companies for about 150 years. This is not a new thing.

jeltz 14y ago

> His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. Not sure what you refer to here since as far as I know most European countries have provided limited liability companies to entrepreneurs since the 19th century. I know for sure Sweden has has them since 1848. EDIT: Read the original article and it seemed to talk about failure to pay social charges for employees being a criminal liability. That may or may not be the case in Spain, but at leats in Sweden it is no different from failing to pay salaries in general. If you cannot pay what you owe you have to bankrupt your company and the government will pay the salaries. If they think you did it for fraudulent reasons they might press charges against you personally, but that is rare.