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Because they don't get enough votes to control the military. If they put a convincing pitch in for why they should then they can. Being a cult doesn't rule them

by roenxi 18d ago

Because they don't get enough votes to control the military. If they put a convincing pitch in for why they should then they can. Being a cult doesn't rule them out. > You do understand what a cult is? Pretty much any religion and a few other organisations beside. Basically people who believe something strongly. What do you think a cult is, in the sense the article is using it?

tsimionescu 18d ago
No, a cult is any closed-off fanatical group that is deemed harmful to its members and sometimes to outsiders as well. The group who launched a sarin gas attack in Tokyo's metro, Aum Shinrikyo, was a cult. The Jonestown group was a cult. Scientology is often considered a cult, though this is less widely accepted (especially since Scientology is much larger). No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. There may be specific communities that are cults that claim to be parts of these churches, but that doesn't mean that "pretty much any religion is a cult".
- rithdmc 18d ago
  > No one calls the Catholic Church "a cult" > No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. Speak for yourself. I was coercively and forcefully added to the Roman Catholic church when I was baptised. Attempts to record myself as removed (the 'Count Me Out' campaign) were met with familial and attempted Church pressure. I was asked to visit the church to discuss the 'impacts of my decision'. I was not recorded as leaving, and the church updated its rules so people in Ireland could no longer request to leave the church. The ways cults control you can vary, and they don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling.
  - tsimionescu 18d ago
    As I said, I'm certain there are specific parts of Catholicism that do exhibit cult-like behaviors. That doesn't mean the Pope is a cult leader in the same way as Reverend Jones was.
    - int_19h 18d ago
      He is, though. It's just that this particular cult has been around for so long that it's "traditional", kinda like tobacco and alcohol were not counted as "narcotics" in most jurisdictions.
      - deleted 17d ago
        [deleted]
      - tsimionescu 17d ago
        No, he's not. Just look at the life of an average Catholic person and the life of an average Scientologist, or better yet, the life of an average Jonestown resident before the suicide, and see the obvious differences. Note also how little the life of an average Catholic differs from that of an average non-religious person in the same country. I would be completely fine with saying that there do exist cults operating within the Catholic Church. Arguably, monasteries, especially the more isolated ones, are very much cults, with the cloistered lifestyle, complete dedication to the faith, strict authority, and requirement to cut previous ties to join, plus cutting ties if deciding to leave. I'd even agree that the priesthood constitutes somewhat of a cult, for similar reasons. However, claiming that all of the hundreds of millions of lay Catholic believers are members of a cult is ludicrous.
        int_19h 16d ago
        Catholics literally believe that Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith ex cathedra. If that's not a cult then what is? Or how about Mormons? Are they a cult or not? If not, were they a cult at some point, and when exactly did they stop being one?
        tsimionescu 16d ago
        Papal infallibility, at least as it is today, is basically equivalent to the SC having the final word on law in the USA. It simply means that all of the church agrees to recognize his word as final in matters of faith. Not at all uncommon. If he were a cult leader, you would see him abusing this power constantly to reassert his power. Instead, papal bulls are rare, we'll thought out, and generally limited to nuances of the faith, not some capricious overhauls. That's not to say that popes, even the most admired ones in recent times, have not engaged in horrid behaviors that are a detriment to humanity, and also in outright corruption. They've hidden the extent of pedophilia in the priesthood, they preach and run campaigns against condom use in some of the areas worse affected by STDs in the world, they systematically exclude women and LGBT people from the church leadership, and many others. I am not some lover of the pope, and I am an atheist myself. About mormonism I honestly know too little to have a good opinion. It certainly seems to have started as a cult, but no idea if it still is, and even less so when it might have stopped being one.
  - kyleee 17d ago
    Sounds like you got off light, try leaving the religion of peace
delis-thumbs-7e 18d ago
[flagged]
- roenxi 18d ago
  It also [0] defines a cult as great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book) or a small group of very devoted supporters or fans. And I put it to you that the article is clearly using the word more in that sense because it is quite difficult to fit the words coercive, insular, or dangerous to the AI safety people. The accusation in the article seems to be that they're too friendly and sexually inclusive. And if you want to communicate with them they appear to be active on Twitter and not shy. > Well, technically military is run now by maga incel death cult, so yeah I give you that one. I forgot I was discussing on US forum. Well, we're speaking in English. I was careful to phrase that in a way that applied to what I'm pretty sure is any English-speaking country. Anywhere that votes could put anyone they like in charge of the military for any reason, cult or no cult. It isn't technically relevant - or practically relevant in most cases. It is just a question of whether the cult has the numbers or not. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
  - delis-thumbs-7e 18d ago
    Yes word have meanings, often several of them. I chose the one we often use when we say ”death cult”, or ”sex cult” etc. You claim to say you know exactly what meaning the author meant, which either you have to derive from quite careful textual analysis - which you haven’t - or you have to be the author themselves. Personally think having sex is quite fine and dandy, even group sex if that’s your thing. Sex cult indeed sounds a bit ominous. I wonder why furries are never described as cult, although they are indeed very devoted. Britney Spears fan club has very strond devotees who I’m sure have sex with each other (since it is mostly gay men), but never heard of Britney Spears Sex Cult. I wonder if it just that you try to weasel away from negative publicity by trying to flex the meaning of words to turn the meaning of this bluesky post upside down? In that case I might suggest you to tread carefully. When nothing is true, everything is possible and all that.

by roenxi 18d ago

tsimionescu 18d ago

No, a cult is any closed-off fanatical group that is deemed harmful to its members and sometimes to outsiders as well. The group who launched a sarin gas attack in Tokyo's metro, Aum Shinrikyo, was a cult. The Jonestown group was a cult. Scientology is often considered a cult, though this is less widely accepted (especially since Scientology is much larger). No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. There may be specific communities that are cults that claim to be parts of these churches, but that doesn't mean that "pretty much any religion is a cult".

rithdmc 18d ago
> No one calls the Catholic Church "a cult" > No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. Speak for yourself. I was coercively and forcefully added to the Roman Catholic church when I was baptised. Attempts to record myself as removed (the 'Count Me Out' campaign) were met with familial and attempted Church pressure. I was asked to visit the church to discuss the 'impacts of my decision'. I was not recorded as leaving, and the church updated its rules so people in Ireland could no longer request to leave the church. The ways cults control you can vary, and they don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling.
- tsimionescu 18d ago
  As I said, I'm certain there are specific parts of Catholicism that do exhibit cult-like behaviors. That doesn't mean the Pope is a cult leader in the same way as Reverend Jones was.
  - int_19h 18d ago
    He is, though. It's just that this particular cult has been around for so long that it's "traditional", kinda like tobacco and alcohol were not counted as "narcotics" in most jurisdictions.
    - deleted 17d ago
      [deleted]
    - tsimionescu 17d ago
      No, he's not. Just look at the life of an average Catholic person and the life of an average Scientologist, or better yet, the life of an average Jonestown resident before the suicide, and see the obvious differences. Note also how little the life of an average Catholic differs from that of an average non-religious person in the same country. I would be completely fine with saying that there do exist cults operating within the Catholic Church. Arguably, monasteries, especially the more isolated ones, are very much cults, with the cloistered lifestyle, complete dedication to the faith, strict authority, and requirement to cut previous ties to join, plus cutting ties if deciding to leave. I'd even agree that the priesthood constitutes somewhat of a cult, for similar reasons. However, claiming that all of the hundreds of millions of lay Catholic believers are members of a cult is ludicrous.
      - int_19h 16d ago
        Catholics literally believe that Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith ex cathedra. If that's not a cult then what is? Or how about Mormons? Are they a cult or not? If not, were they a cult at some point, and when exactly did they stop being one?
        tsimionescu 16d ago
        Papal infallibility, at least as it is today, is basically equivalent to the SC having the final word on law in the USA. It simply means that all of the church agrees to recognize his word as final in matters of faith. Not at all uncommon. If he were a cult leader, you would see him abusing this power constantly to reassert his power. Instead, papal bulls are rare, we'll thought out, and generally limited to nuances of the faith, not some capricious overhauls. That's not to say that popes, even the most admired ones in recent times, have not engaged in horrid behaviors that are a detriment to humanity, and also in outright corruption. They've hidden the extent of pedophilia in the priesthood, they preach and run campaigns against condom use in some of the areas worse affected by STDs in the world, they systematically exclude women and LGBT people from the church leadership, and many others. I am not some lover of the pope, and I am an atheist myself. About mormonism I honestly know too little to have a good opinion. It certainly seems to have started as a cult, but no idea if it still is, and even less so when it might have stopped being one.
- kyleee 17d ago
  Sounds like you got off light, try leaving the religion of peace

delis-thumbs-7e 18d ago

[flagged]

roenxi 18d ago
It also [0] defines a cult as great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book) or a small group of very devoted supporters or fans. And I put it to you that the article is clearly using the word more in that sense because it is quite difficult to fit the words coercive, insular, or dangerous to the AI safety people. The accusation in the article seems to be that they're too friendly and sexually inclusive. And if you want to communicate with them they appear to be active on Twitter and not shy. > Well, technically military is run now by maga incel death cult, so yeah I give you that one. I forgot I was discussing on US forum. Well, we're speaking in English. I was careful to phrase that in a way that applied to what I'm pretty sure is any English-speaking country. Anywhere that votes could put anyone they like in charge of the military for any reason, cult or no cult. It isn't technically relevant - or practically relevant in most cases. It is just a question of whether the cult has the numbers or not. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
- delis-thumbs-7e 18d ago
  Yes word have meanings, often several of them. I chose the one we often use when we say ”death cult”, or ”sex cult” etc. You claim to say you know exactly what meaning the author meant, which either you have to derive from quite careful textual analysis - which you haven’t - or you have to be the author themselves. Personally think having sex is quite fine and dandy, even group sex if that’s your thing. Sex cult indeed sounds a bit ominous. I wonder why furries are never described as cult, although they are indeed very devoted. Britney Spears fan club has very strond devotees who I’m sure have sex with each other (since it is mostly gay men), but never heard of Britney Spears Sex Cult. I wonder if it just that you try to weasel away from negative publicity by trying to flex the meaning of words to turn the meaning of this bluesky post upside down? In that case I might suggest you to tread carefully. When nothing is true, everything is possible and all that.