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I mean, this is a rather fun article to read but I'm not entirely sure about the thesis. > AI Safety Is Mostly A Sex Cult. > I don't think these people should

by roenxi 15d ago

I mean, this is a rather fun article to read but I'm not entirely sure about the thesis. > AI Safety Is Mostly A Sex Cult. > I don't think these people should make policy. (1/?) One of the learnings from things like the whole Epstein saga has been there are a lot of sex cults in the policy making world and, yes, the people making policy generally shouldn't be. But I'm not sure this article actually comes up with a good explanation of why these particular people shouldn't be making policy. People having active sex lives isn't a disqualifying trait. Being in a cult doesn't disqualify people from being in politics. It is routine and expected that fields will have a lot of similar people in them (as I recall the overlap between security researchers and the furry community is unusual too, and that is hardly more important than justifying a passing comment). It is more routine than the article writer seems to think for all the people in a small field to know each other and get on really well.

MetaWhirledPeas 15d ago
> Being in a cult doesn't disqualify people from being in politics Let's survey the American voters
- ShinyLeftPad 15d ago
  You don't need to survey them because they already voted. US congress is 95%+ religious people
  - tsimionescu 14d ago
    Religious people, not cultists. How many Scientologists, Falun Gong members, etc are there in Congress?
    - akomtu 14d ago
      Scientology is an evil cult, while Falun Gong is more like Buddhism. You can't really compare them.
      - tsimionescu 14d ago
        Falun Gong is a cult that claims following its tenets can cure any disease, so you don't need doctors (and that high level Falun Gong members are so perfectly healthy that they are hunted by CCP members for their perfect organs). The founder claims to have magical powers, like clairvoyance, levitation, walking through walls, omnipresence, the ability to cure diseases - at least some of which anyone who follows his teachings could reach. Extraterrestrials, higher dimensions, and other such are also part of it. Also, on the evil cult front, Falun Gong is a supporter of right wing extremists in both the USA and Europe. So no, I don't agree there is much fundamental difference from Scientology.
        akomtu 13d ago
        Oh my, where did you get this from? I happen to know both. The founder of Scientology was a scientist who started with a somewhat decent idea, got popular in the US, but his fame passed quickly. He really craved for that fame, though, so he changed his teaching into some cultist stuff, paired with some sketchy lord and proceeded with demon invocations. His main book is Dianetics, and his followers are very vindictive to those who leave the cult. Falun Dafa, on the other hand, is more like a Buddhist discipline. You are free to meditate in a park if you feel like it, you are free to go if you don't. There is no organisation, no one will know your name. Its main book is Zhuan Falun, which you could read to make your own opinion, rather than repeating someone's talking points. CCP hunts Falun Gong because its founder refused to become a part of CCP. You can read this story on Wikipedia. The situation is similar to the early days of Christianity when Nero burned christians alive and wanted to eradicate their faith. The irony is that today the Roman Empire has reduced to the city of Vatican which is the temple of Christianity. CCP will fall similarly. As for organs extraction... well, read about the Sujiatun Concentration Camp. CCP sends there young Falun Gong followers and sells their organs to high rank officials. Demonic creativity. But what did you expect from a communist regime?
        dTal 12d ago
        I checked Wikipedia, it says in the first paragraph that there's a 427 acre compound in upstate New York. Not bad for "no organisation". (It also contradicts your narrative about why CCP doesn't like them)
    - ShinyLeftPad 14d ago
      What defines a cult then in your opinion if not "a cult that i like"?
      - tsimionescu 14d ago
        I don't like most religions, personally. But there is a significant difference between a regular religious community, that has its own shared beliefs but doesn't completely exclude those who don't share them (e.g. by forbidding members to even become friends with people outside the community), or demand the community members completely dedicate a majority of their time to the religion; and a cult, which does do all of these things. Note that there exist cults within many major religions. There exist for example extremist Catholic groups that would fit the definition of a cult. But that doesn't mean that all Catholics are a cult.
        ShinyLeftPad 13d ago
        "AI safety" is not a cult by that definition any more than Christianity or Islam. There's some subgroups that are a bit more cultist, and that's the same in Christianity etc Same with Falun Dafa, have a friend who is a practitioner, it's completely normal to have friends outside of community (tons of his friends are), no one tries to convert anyone, and between his business and other stuff the time he spends on the practice is really not that much
delis-thumbs-7e 15d ago
You do understand what a cult is? There’s a reason why we don’t let the Scientologists run the military no?
- roenxi 15d ago
  Because they don't get enough votes to control the military. If they put a convincing pitch in for why they should then they can. Being a cult doesn't rule them out. > You do understand what a cult is? Pretty much any religion and a few other organisations beside. Basically people who believe something strongly. What do you think a cult is, in the sense the article is using it?
  - tsimionescu 14d ago
    No, a cult is any closed-off fanatical group that is deemed harmful to its members and sometimes to outsiders as well. The group who launched a sarin gas attack in Tokyo's metro, Aum Shinrikyo, was a cult. The Jonestown group was a cult. Scientology is often considered a cult, though this is less widely accepted (especially since Scientology is much larger). No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. There may be specific communities that are cults that claim to be parts of these churches, but that doesn't mean that "pretty much any religion is a cult".
    - rithdmc 14d ago
      > No one calls the Catholic Church "a cult" > No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. Speak for yourself. I was coercively and forcefully added to the Roman Catholic church when I was baptised. Attempts to record myself as removed (the 'Count Me Out' campaign) were met with familial and attempted Church pressure. I was asked to visit the church to discuss the 'impacts of my decision'. I was not recorded as leaving, and the church updated its rules so people in Ireland could no longer request to leave the church. The ways cults control you can vary, and they don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling.

by roenxi 15d ago

MetaWhirledPeas 15d ago

> Being in a cult doesn't disqualify people from being in politics Let's survey the American voters

ShinyLeftPad 15d ago
You don't need to survey them because they already voted. US congress is 95%+ religious people
- tsimionescu 14d ago
  Religious people, not cultists. How many Scientologists, Falun Gong members, etc are there in Congress?
  - akomtu 14d ago
    Scientology is an evil cult, while Falun Gong is more like Buddhism. You can't really compare them.
    - tsimionescu 14d ago
      Falun Gong is a cult that claims following its tenets can cure any disease, so you don't need doctors (and that high level Falun Gong members are so perfectly healthy that they are hunted by CCP members for their perfect organs). The founder claims to have magical powers, like clairvoyance, levitation, walking through walls, omnipresence, the ability to cure diseases - at least some of which anyone who follows his teachings could reach. Extraterrestrials, higher dimensions, and other such are also part of it. Also, on the evil cult front, Falun Gong is a supporter of right wing extremists in both the USA and Europe. So no, I don't agree there is much fundamental difference from Scientology.
      - akomtu 13d ago
        Oh my, where did you get this from? I happen to know both. The founder of Scientology was a scientist who started with a somewhat decent idea, got popular in the US, but his fame passed quickly. He really craved for that fame, though, so he changed his teaching into some cultist stuff, paired with some sketchy lord and proceeded with demon invocations. His main book is Dianetics, and his followers are very vindictive to those who leave the cult. Falun Dafa, on the other hand, is more like a Buddhist discipline. You are free to meditate in a park if you feel like it, you are free to go if you don't. There is no organisation, no one will know your name. Its main book is Zhuan Falun, which you could read to make your own opinion, rather than repeating someone's talking points. CCP hunts Falun Gong because its founder refused to become a part of CCP. You can read this story on Wikipedia. The situation is similar to the early days of Christianity when Nero burned christians alive and wanted to eradicate their faith. The irony is that today the Roman Empire has reduced to the city of Vatican which is the temple of Christianity. CCP will fall similarly. As for organs extraction... well, read about the Sujiatun Concentration Camp. CCP sends there young Falun Gong followers and sells their organs to high rank officials. Demonic creativity. But what did you expect from a communist regime?
        dTal 12d ago
        I checked Wikipedia, it says in the first paragraph that there's a 427 acre compound in upstate New York. Not bad for "no organisation". (It also contradicts your narrative about why CCP doesn't like them)
  - ShinyLeftPad 14d ago
    What defines a cult then in your opinion if not "a cult that i like"?
    - tsimionescu 14d ago
      I don't like most religions, personally. But there is a significant difference between a regular religious community, that has its own shared beliefs but doesn't completely exclude those who don't share them (e.g. by forbidding members to even become friends with people outside the community), or demand the community members completely dedicate a majority of their time to the religion; and a cult, which does do all of these things. Note that there exist cults within many major religions. There exist for example extremist Catholic groups that would fit the definition of a cult. But that doesn't mean that all Catholics are a cult.
      - ShinyLeftPad 13d ago
        "AI safety" is not a cult by that definition any more than Christianity or Islam. There's some subgroups that are a bit more cultist, and that's the same in Christianity etc Same with Falun Dafa, have a friend who is a practitioner, it's completely normal to have friends outside of community (tons of his friends are), no one tries to convert anyone, and between his business and other stuff the time he spends on the practice is really not that much

delis-thumbs-7e 15d ago

You do understand what a cult is? There’s a reason why we don’t let the Scientologists run the military no?

roenxi 15d ago
Because they don't get enough votes to control the military. If they put a convincing pitch in for why they should then they can. Being a cult doesn't rule them out. > You do understand what a cult is? Pretty much any religion and a few other organisations beside. Basically people who believe something strongly. What do you think a cult is, in the sense the article is using it?
- tsimionescu 14d ago
  No, a cult is any closed-off fanatical group that is deemed harmful to its members and sometimes to outsiders as well. The group who launched a sarin gas attack in Tokyo's metro, Aum Shinrikyo, was a cult. The Jonestown group was a cult. Scientology is often considered a cult, though this is less widely accepted (especially since Scientology is much larger). No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. There may be specific communities that are cults that claim to be parts of these churches, but that doesn't mean that "pretty much any religion is a cult".
  - rithdmc 14d ago
    > No one calls the Catholic Church "a cult" > No one considers Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Baptism cults. Speak for yourself. I was coercively and forcefully added to the Roman Catholic church when I was baptised. Attempts to record myself as removed (the 'Count Me Out' campaign) were met with familial and attempted Church pressure. I was asked to visit the church to discuss the 'impacts of my decision'. I was not recorded as leaving, and the church updated its rules so people in Ireland could no longer request to leave the church. The ways cults control you can vary, and they don't have to involve threats or violence to be coercive control. Threatening to take away someone's community for a lack of belief is controlling.