4 ms·

https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d6e1c67755150653dff https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d...

by sync 14y ago

bguthrie 14y ago
I read that entire comment thread, and maybe my perspective is skewed, but I saw none of the behavior that DHH described there. The discussion was generally polite, the participants were mostly experienced Ruby developers with open-source and community track records, and their objections were well-supported. I have less sympathy now for the original post than I did.
- malandrew 14y ago
  Exactly my thoughts. For example, I know for certain that José Valim is (or at least was last time I checked) a core ruby dev and he's against this change for example. DHH wants to sound like he's talking to trolls and the casual Rails user, but it's clear from the github thread that he's responding to seasoned members of the community as well, which quite frankly is a pretty shitty way to treat people who are known contributors. It's not a community, it's whoever screams loudest. To me that thread and this posts shows that DHH is willingly wearing horse blinders instead of keeping his opinions being open to being amended through thoughtful discussion with others as talented as he is. The biggest problem with this "omakase" attitude is that it's causing Rails developers to miss the boat on many new developments in the state of the art in web app development because legacy is now baked in via opinion. 37Signals hasn't been the forefront of web-app design for a few years now. There are plenty of single page web apps out there that are far more responsible and present a better user experience than tools from 37Signals. Don't get me wrong, they are still decent, but they aren't demonstrative of what is achievable insofar as excellent user experiences are concerned. Maybe this has changed, but I spent a year working on a single page webapp built on Rails and the asset pipeline was excruciatingly painful to debug to get your javascript and other assets handled properly.
  - rrouse 14y ago
    Rails Core. I don't think he actually has Ruby core access like Aaron Patterson (Tenderlove) Actually, I think he's sort of on vacation from Rails for the most part. He's got Elixir to work on. As for the matter at hand, Bundler author Yehuda Katz said that checking in binstubs is actually not a good idea and is not recommended. DHH is going against the grain here.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      Aaron and Yehuda are the only two people on both teams, Jose is on Rails Core only. He is also a maintainer of Bundler, as is Terence, who is also on the thread.
  - hosh 14y ago
    "37Signals hasn't been the forefront of web-app design for a few years now." Exactly. This shift isn't just "single page web apps" either. It is a generational shift. When people say "apps" now, it isn't a "web app". For all the thousands of hours of experience DHH says he has, it is stuck in a very narrow view while the rest of the world has moved on. That's ok though. The neat thing about open source is that developers and users do not have to suffer dinosaurs for long. It does mean that I can no longer depend on my Rails skill to put food on the table. Recruiters, desperate for Rails developers, will no longer be knocking on my door. It's a good thing I've been laying in the groundwork for the inevitable irrelevancy of Rails.
    - dasil003 14y ago
      "The rest of the world has moved on"? Good lord man, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the web is not simply "apps". If you think Rails is irrelevant today than you are practicing fad-driven-development moreso than developing any real insight about the lay of the software land.
      - hosh 14y ago
        Yes. The rest of the world has moved on. If you've characterized what I am saying here as "web is simply apps", then you do not understand what I am saying. I've written this in one other comment, I suppose I will repeat myself: (1) There are more mobile units being sold than personal computers. (2) More importantly, there are 2 year olds whose first experience with a personal computing device will be a smartphone or a tablet. When the start going to school, they will be forced to use a keyboard and will resent it. They will see this as a problem to be solved, and will solve it. This is a generation gap, something between 10 - 18 years from now. (3) Our generation tend to think of the "web" as experienced primarily through a desktop or a laptop. We also like to think that we are at the cutting edge. We are not: these two year olds are. (4) Rails is designed and used by people who experience the "web" through a desktop, and refuses to see where the world will be heading in the following years. There are a lot more. So yes. The direction Rails is going will lead it to its irrelevance.
- cbs 14y ago
  I agree, this is a good example of why I think the complaints about criticism in the open source space need to be put back in check. Some are deserved, but these guys aren't trolls or well-intentioned idiots they're all trying to build the best rails they can. I've been in and witnessed plenty of disagreements in closed source development, they always get much much more heated than this before someone pulled rank.
- KVFinn 14y ago
  >I read that entire comment thread, and maybe my perspective is skewed, but I saw none of the behavior that DHH described there. The discussion was generally polite, the participants were mostly experienced Ruby developers with open-source and community track records, and their objections were well-supported. I have less sympathy now for the original post than I did. My thoughts exactly. I read the DHH post first and thought, "I totally agree. That's why I like rails." But the thread was perfectly civil and the people in it were experienced and well known in the Ruby world.

https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d6e1c67755150653dff https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d...

by sync 14y ago

https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d6e1c67755150653dff https://github.com/rails/rails/commit/61b91c4c55bcbd5a2ec85d...

bguthrie 14y ago

I read that entire comment thread, and maybe my perspective is skewed, but I saw none of the behavior that DHH described there. The discussion was generally polite, the participants were mostly experienced Ruby developers with open-source and community track records, and their objections were well-supported. I have less sympathy now for the original post than I did.

malandrew 14y ago
Exactly my thoughts. For example, I know for certain that José Valim is (or at least was last time I checked) a core ruby dev and he's against this change for example. DHH wants to sound like he's talking to trolls and the casual Rails user, but it's clear from the github thread that he's responding to seasoned members of the community as well, which quite frankly is a pretty shitty way to treat people who are known contributors. It's not a community, it's whoever screams loudest. To me that thread and this posts shows that DHH is willingly wearing horse blinders instead of keeping his opinions being open to being amended through thoughtful discussion with others as talented as he is. The biggest problem with this "omakase" attitude is that it's causing Rails developers to miss the boat on many new developments in the state of the art in web app development because legacy is now baked in via opinion. 37Signals hasn't been the forefront of web-app design for a few years now. There are plenty of single page web apps out there that are far more responsible and present a better user experience than tools from 37Signals. Don't get me wrong, they are still decent, but they aren't demonstrative of what is achievable insofar as excellent user experiences are concerned. Maybe this has changed, but I spent a year working on a single page webapp built on Rails and the asset pipeline was excruciatingly painful to debug to get your javascript and other assets handled properly.
- rrouse 14y ago
  Rails Core. I don't think he actually has Ruby core access like Aaron Patterson (Tenderlove) Actually, I think he's sort of on vacation from Rails for the most part. He's got Elixir to work on. As for the matter at hand, Bundler author Yehuda Katz said that checking in binstubs is actually not a good idea and is not recommended. DHH is going against the grain here.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    Aaron and Yehuda are the only two people on both teams, Jose is on Rails Core only. He is also a maintainer of Bundler, as is Terence, who is also on the thread.
- hosh 14y ago
  "37Signals hasn't been the forefront of web-app design for a few years now." Exactly. This shift isn't just "single page web apps" either. It is a generational shift. When people say "apps" now, it isn't a "web app". For all the thousands of hours of experience DHH says he has, it is stuck in a very narrow view while the rest of the world has moved on. That's ok though. The neat thing about open source is that developers and users do not have to suffer dinosaurs for long. It does mean that I can no longer depend on my Rails skill to put food on the table. Recruiters, desperate for Rails developers, will no longer be knocking on my door. It's a good thing I've been laying in the groundwork for the inevitable irrelevancy of Rails.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    "The rest of the world has moved on"? Good lord man, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the web is not simply "apps". If you think Rails is irrelevant today than you are practicing fad-driven-development moreso than developing any real insight about the lay of the software land.
    - hosh 14y ago
      Yes. The rest of the world has moved on. If you've characterized what I am saying here as "web is simply apps", then you do not understand what I am saying. I've written this in one other comment, I suppose I will repeat myself: (1) There are more mobile units being sold than personal computers. (2) More importantly, there are 2 year olds whose first experience with a personal computing device will be a smartphone or a tablet. When the start going to school, they will be forced to use a keyboard and will resent it. They will see this as a problem to be solved, and will solve it. This is a generation gap, something between 10 - 18 years from now. (3) Our generation tend to think of the "web" as experienced primarily through a desktop or a laptop. We also like to think that we are at the cutting edge. We are not: these two year olds are. (4) Rails is designed and used by people who experience the "web" through a desktop, and refuses to see where the world will be heading in the following years. There are a lot more. So yes. The direction Rails is going will lead it to its irrelevance.
cbs 14y ago
I agree, this is a good example of why I think the complaints about criticism in the open source space need to be put back in check. Some are deserved, but these guys aren't trolls or well-intentioned idiots they're all trying to build the best rails they can. I've been in and witnessed plenty of disagreements in closed source development, they always get much much more heated than this before someone pulled rank.
KVFinn 14y ago
>I read that entire comment thread, and maybe my perspective is skewed, but I saw none of the behavior that DHH described there. The discussion was generally polite, the participants were mostly experienced Ruby developers with open-source and community track records, and their objections were well-supported. I have less sympathy now for the original post than I did. My thoughts exactly. I read the DHH post first and thought, "I totally agree. That's why I like rails." But the thread was perfectly civil and the people in it were experienced and well known in the Ruby world.