3 ms·

So many misconceptions in this writeup. Here's one: even if it were genetic, there could be triggering environmental factors that trigger the onset of autism (

So many misconceptions in this writeup. Here's one: even if it were genetic, there could be triggering environmental factors that trigger the onset of autism (I'm just giving a hypothetical example, not making a claim here).

dwroberts 9d ago
The writeup is a summary of having done a meta analysis of actual research. It also covers environmental factors already
bluGill 10d ago
They specifically said there are environmental factors, and not all of them are known. A few are known though: older parents for example.
sksisnbs 10d ago
Wouldn’t susceptibility to those environmental factors be dictated by your genetics?
nomel 10d ago
For example, 45% reduction in symptoms from fecal transplant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48158494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48158494 > Prior to the study, 83% of participants had "severe" autism. Two years later, only 17% were rated as severe, 39% as mild or moderate, and incredibly, 44% were below the cut-off for mild ASD. Incredible! Sure, there could be a genetic component to what flourishes, or ever seeded, in one's microflora, but there's definitely some external complexities involved here.
- donkey_brains 9d ago
  Of all the misguided, abusive studies. It beggars belief that a board somehow approved this. What happened here is simple: the autistic kids got better at masking in order to placate the researchers who were shoving poop up their butts. In the hope of making it stop.
  - sokka_h2otribe 9d ago
    to be honest I doubt people were masking in response to poop shoving, poop shoving is not the worst and presumably the control group just had non-poop what seems more plausible to me would be ~<<poop helped something, something made life easier, autistic life is less obvious and disruptive to non-autistics when life is easier>>
    - strken 9d ago
      That study measured a drop from 83% to 17% in severe autism, and one behaviour typical of severe autism is slamming one's head into the wall, among other things. I think it's overly dismissive to summarise a drop in these behaviours as just "less obvious and disruptive to non-autistics". I can't imagine slamming your head into stuff is pleasant regardless of whether you have autism.
      - bcjdjsndon 9d ago
        That's also not the definition for severe autism, "banging head on wall"
        strken 9d ago
        No, but per my earlier reply, it's one behaviour typical of severe autism, among other forms of self-harm. Pretending that broader society only wants to reduce the severity of autism symptoms for their own convenience is ignoring the very real suffering that's happening.
      - dns_snek 7d ago
        The study chose 18 participants such that 83% of them were just above the cut-off for severe autism according to the CARS rating scale, 16 of whom were boys, for a non-blinded, non-randomized, non-placebo-controlled trial with no control group, with symptoms assessed by evaluators who weren't blinded to previous assessments of each participant, and explicitly used those assessments to "calibrate" all future results without further elaboration, and with most of the subjects having changed other treatments and diets during the observation period. This is poor quality evidence of anything.
- dns_snek 9d ago
  The study that found a 47%* reduction (relative to symptoms at the start of the study) wasn't placebo controlled and had a sample size of just 18, so there's not even a control group to compare against. > We note that due to the open-label nature of this initial trial, all of the assessments are subject to placebo effect, however the long-term improvements we observed here are promising. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42183-0#Sec2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42183-0#Sec2
  - nomel 9d ago
    Then, I suppose you could argue there's a possible, statistically significant, genetic component for efficacy of placebo, in autistic people. ;)
- bcjdjsndon 9d ago
  > Prior to the study, 83% of participants had "severe" autism. Two years later, only 17% were rated as severe, 39% as mild or moderate, and incredibly, 44% were below the cut-off for mild ASD. It just says they behaved better, that's not recovering from severe autism at all... They didn't magically acquire language from a fecal transplant. Misleading
strideashort 9d ago
Not onset, that makes no sense. Environment makes certain traits visible - eg noise and smell sensory issues, even social settings. Put me in a forest and i will be indistinguishable from a neuro-prevalent - no social pressure, no noise, no smells. Actually the neuro-prevalent might be suffering for the lack of those i suppose
- strken 9d ago
  Schizophrenia is known to have genetic factors that can increase its likelihood, but is also linked to environmental factors like cannabis use and stress. The group without the environmental factors has a lower incidence of schizophrenia, so it's generally believed that the onset of schizophrenia is triggered by them. Male homosexuality is believed to have a small genetic component but is also linked to birth order. One theory is that in utero testosterone from older brothers can affect the sexuality of a younger brother. I disagree that it makes no sense for environmental factors to lead to the onset of autism, on the basis that environmental factors can make someone gay or schizophrenic. That is to say, they can influence a personality and a mind in complicated ways that don't seem intuitive.
  - strideashort 9d ago
    Well how do you detect autism if it’s traits never show? It’s a bit loke saying fish don’t develop aquism unless they are facing non-acquatic environment. Kinda crude comparison but you get then idea.
    - strken 9d ago
      If you have 100k people who don't smoke cannabis and 100k who do, 1000 of the non-smokers and 1400 of the smokers will have schizophrenia. How do you detect schizophrenia in the 400 people in the non-smoker category? The answer is that you can't. They don't have schizophrenia. This is what it means for something to have an environmental trigger. I get that you're making a point about ableism and environment, but in order to do so you're confusing two things: the onset of autism (at a very early age or even before birth and triggered by who knows what), and the occurrence of any specific symptom of autism (at any age and triggered by things we generally understand).

dwroberts 9d ago

The writeup is a summary of having done a meta analysis of actual research. It also covers environmental factors already

bluGill 10d ago

They specifically said there are environmental factors, and not all of them are known. A few are known though: older parents for example.

sksisnbs 10d ago

Wouldn’t susceptibility to those environmental factors be dictated by your genetics?

nomel 10d ago

For example, 45% reduction in symptoms from fecal transplant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48158494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48158494 > Prior to the study, 83% of participants had "severe" autism. Two years later, only 17% were rated as severe, 39% as mild or moderate, and incredibly, 44% were below the cut-off for mild ASD. Incredible! Sure, there could be a genetic component to what flourishes, or ever seeded, in one's microflora, but there's definitely some external complexities involved here.

donkey_brains 9d ago
Of all the misguided, abusive studies. It beggars belief that a board somehow approved this. What happened here is simple: the autistic kids got better at masking in order to placate the researchers who were shoving poop up their butts. In the hope of making it stop.
- sokka_h2otribe 9d ago
  to be honest I doubt people were masking in response to poop shoving, poop shoving is not the worst and presumably the control group just had non-poop what seems more plausible to me would be ~<<poop helped something, something made life easier, autistic life is less obvious and disruptive to non-autistics when life is easier>>
  - strken 9d ago
    That study measured a drop from 83% to 17% in severe autism, and one behaviour typical of severe autism is slamming one's head into the wall, among other things. I think it's overly dismissive to summarise a drop in these behaviours as just "less obvious and disruptive to non-autistics". I can't imagine slamming your head into stuff is pleasant regardless of whether you have autism.
    - bcjdjsndon 9d ago
      That's also not the definition for severe autism, "banging head on wall"
      - strken 9d ago
        No, but per my earlier reply, it's one behaviour typical of severe autism, among other forms of self-harm. Pretending that broader society only wants to reduce the severity of autism symptoms for their own convenience is ignoring the very real suffering that's happening.
    - dns_snek 7d ago
      The study chose 18 participants such that 83% of them were just above the cut-off for severe autism according to the CARS rating scale, 16 of whom were boys, for a non-blinded, non-randomized, non-placebo-controlled trial with no control group, with symptoms assessed by evaluators who weren't blinded to previous assessments of each participant, and explicitly used those assessments to "calibrate" all future results without further elaboration, and with most of the subjects having changed other treatments and diets during the observation period. This is poor quality evidence of anything.
dns_snek 9d ago
The study that found a 47%* reduction (relative to symptoms at the start of the study) wasn't placebo controlled and had a sample size of just 18, so there's not even a control group to compare against. > We note that due to the open-label nature of this initial trial, all of the assessments are subject to placebo effect, however the long-term improvements we observed here are promising. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42183-0#Sec2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42183-0#Sec2
- nomel 9d ago
  Then, I suppose you could argue there's a possible, statistically significant, genetic component for efficacy of placebo, in autistic people. ;)
bcjdjsndon 9d ago
> Prior to the study, 83% of participants had "severe" autism. Two years later, only 17% were rated as severe, 39% as mild or moderate, and incredibly, 44% were below the cut-off for mild ASD. It just says they behaved better, that's not recovering from severe autism at all... They didn't magically acquire language from a fecal transplant. Misleading

strideashort 9d ago

Not onset, that makes no sense. Environment makes certain traits visible - eg noise and smell sensory issues, even social settings. Put me in a forest and i will be indistinguishable from a neuro-prevalent - no social pressure, no noise, no smells. Actually the neuro-prevalent might be suffering for the lack of those i suppose

strken 9d ago
Schizophrenia is known to have genetic factors that can increase its likelihood, but is also linked to environmental factors like cannabis use and stress. The group without the environmental factors has a lower incidence of schizophrenia, so it's generally believed that the onset of schizophrenia is triggered by them. Male homosexuality is believed to have a small genetic component but is also linked to birth order. One theory is that in utero testosterone from older brothers can affect the sexuality of a younger brother. I disagree that it makes no sense for environmental factors to lead to the onset of autism, on the basis that environmental factors can make someone gay or schizophrenic. That is to say, they can influence a personality and a mind in complicated ways that don't seem intuitive.
- strideashort 9d ago
  Well how do you detect autism if it’s traits never show? It’s a bit loke saying fish don’t develop aquism unless they are facing non-acquatic environment. Kinda crude comparison but you get then idea.
  - strken 9d ago
    If you have 100k people who don't smoke cannabis and 100k who do, 1000 of the non-smokers and 1400 of the smokers will have schizophrenia. How do you detect schizophrenia in the 400 people in the non-smoker category? The answer is that you can't. They don't have schizophrenia. This is what it means for something to have an environmental trigger. I get that you're making a point about ableism and environment, but in order to do so you're confusing two things: the onset of autism (at a very early age or even before birth and triggered by who knows what), and the occurrence of any specific symptom of autism (at any age and triggered by things we generally understand).