4 ms·
Replying to myself: this is fun! Let's ask ChatGPT (whatever model the website currently feels like using) an improved question: > Three identical homogeneous
by amluto 18d ago
Replying to myself: this is fun! Let's ask ChatGPT (whatever model the website currently feels like using) an improved question:
> Three identical homogeneous balls are placed on a smooth horizontal surface, touching each other and are close enough to each other. A rope is wrapped around the spheres at the height of their centers, tying them together. A fourth identical sphere is placed on top of the three spheres. It is given that the weight of each sphere is P.
> Ignore the fact that the rope would fall off -- assume for simplicity that the rope has is externally constrained to be in the equatorial plane of the lower three balls and also that the rope has zero thickness, cannot stretch at all, and is not pretensioned, and also that the rope has no friction against the balls.
> Treat this as a statics problem and analyze it. Is it overdetermined? Under what circumstances would the balls move? What is the behavior of the system?
And... first, it says "I’ll separate the geometry from the constraint mechanics, because the key question is not just force balance: it’s whether the inextensible, initially slack-free rope actually fixes the lower-ball geometry or merely limits outward separation." Excuse me? What would the other option be? Either outward separation is prevented or it isn't. Where else could the balls go?
Then, despite the fact that I've mentioned friction in the prompt, it gives an extremely longwinded answer that matches the benchmark and ignores tangential forces entirely without comment. Was it perhaps trained on this crap?
So I followed up:
> Stop ignoring tangential friction forces. I believe that a problem very much like this with a potentially incorrect answer is in your training set. Answer with actual analysis, not based on memory.
Much time was spent thinking. An early part of the answer was "The central correction is this: allowing static friction at the sphere–sphere contacts does not mean arbitrary tangential forces are available. Each sphere must also satisfy torque equilibrium. In this tetrahedral contact geometry, those torque equations force every sphere–sphere tangential contact force to be zero in static equilibrium.". Hey ChatGPT, this is still wrong -- you have forgotten sphere-table friction. The sphere-sphere force on the lower spheres does not have to net out to zero. (And if you do think it nets to zero then you don't need to think any further.)
I then added:
> What if there sphere-table friction?
And encountered the usual problem (which maybe only affects me?) where the chatgpt.com UI becomes kind of unusable after ChatGPT spews too much math into the conversation. But somewhere in the barely-even-scrollable results was this "The three lower balls can be held in position entirely by the coupled sphere–sphere/table friction forces." Hallelujah!
- CamperBob2 18d agowhatever model the website currently feels like using You cannot simply handwave this away. "ChatGPT" models range from GPT 5.5 on "Light" effort to GPT 6 Astra with "Ultra" effort. The latter yields as good an answer as you could expect for a question that is still poorly formed ("close enough," WTF does that mean?): https://chatgpt.com/share/6aab1e43-da3c-83e8-9ec4-1b63cec2c141 https://chatgpt.com/share/6aab1e43-da3c-83e8-9ec4-1b63cec2c1...
- amluto 18d agoWhen I click your share, it shows the model. When I click into my chat, it just says "High". I did ask the model what it was and it said "GPT-5.6 Sol". Oh, and I don't even have a "light" option, and I'm signed in to a Pro account. (I continue to despise the chatgpt.com frontend.) In any case, I tried again forcing GPT-6 Astra Pro (apparently I can't choose GPT-6 Astra non-Pro) and gave the same prompt. It searches the web and gives a long-winded answer, including: > 7. Does unspecified sphere–sphere friction change the static answer? > For ordinary ideal point contacts in this regular-tetrahedral configuration, it does not. Gravity, the floor reactions, and the frictionless equatorial rope exert no torque about any sphere’s center. The tangential intersphere forces must therefore balance their torques by themselves. I'm glad it contemplated the possibility of friction, but it forgot about the table/floor there. So maybe this is a little better than Sol?
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- red75prime 18d agoYeah, it's strange that people who should be knowledgeable in experimentation ignore that. "I heard that people enjoy skiing. I've tried skiing on whatever surface happened to be on a nearby hill and it didn't work!"
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