5 ms·

One thing with some modern sci-fi shows is that it's more of a message with a disguise of a story rather than a story with a disguised message. The writers jus

One thing with some modern sci-fi shows is that it's more of a message with a disguise of a story rather than a story with a disguised message. The writers justify the change by saying (correctly) that the message is important and that right now is the most important time to say the message. The message became more important than the vehicle that it travelled in so bad writing is allowed. It's true there's always been a message in these loved shows but not at the expense of story. It's like Christian rock music, it's okay and if you are Christian you might enjoy it both for the message and the music but if you just want good music you are likely not going to enjoy it as much as regular "secular" rock. But there's also rock music that everyone can enjoys which contains (not sure the word to describe it) religious-adjacent themes.

calvinmorrison 18d ago
nobody ever got hurt listening to mewithoutyou
- moate 18d ago
  speak for yourself, I have def been bopping along to The King Beetle and tripped over something at some point :D
wisty 18d ago
Nah, politics in shows is great. It's like CGI. It can really make a show pop if it's well thought out, subtle, and feels realistic. People complain about it when it seems to be used as an excuse for a lack other aspects of the show, or it makes everything seem unrealistic because they were more keen on putting it in than actually caring about whether it was realistic or at least made things feel realistic to the viewer. The OG Jurassic Park had lots of politics and lots of CGI. No-one complained about it, because it was well done. If they had a jerkily animated raptor judo flipping a t-rex for no other reason than the director thought it would be cool to include then people would be saying the CGI was awful.
- TaLiTr 18d ago
  > Nah, politics in shows is great. It's like CGI. It can really make a show pop if it's well thought out, subtle, and feels realistic. Is this a joke? To me both CGI and politics have the same issue which is aging poorly. Nobody thinks The Phantom Menace looks better than A New Hope.
  - DonHopkins 18d ago
    Dick aged well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F5bMFSYPvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F5bMFSYPvE
  - Arainach 18d ago
    Everything is political. If you think it's not, you're just benefiting from the status quo and blind to it. Even ignoring that history loves to repeat itself, plenty of politics in all forms of media has aged excellently, and plenty of politics that haven't aged well are still insightful into the period of the piece.
    - krige 18d ago
      There's a striking difference between telling and tone deaf preaching and when people complain about politics they always, without fail, mean the latter. The stance of "everything is political" itself is extremely tone deaf.
      - UpsideDownRide 18d ago
        It reads like you are using tone deaf as a substitute for 'somethign I dont like'
        krige 18d ago
        Surely you can see that one follows the other.
    - norome 18d ago
graemep 18d ago
> It's like Christian rock music its usually not good though. If it was good they would not market it as Christian. Lots of bands have Christian lyrics without Christian marketing - U2 for example. I suppose that is the equivalent of the SF story with the disguised message.
Shog9 18d ago
Please go back and re-read some pulp scifi from, say, 70 years back and then spend some time scrolling through microfilm copies of newspapers from the same era. You will find that SciFi has been mostly social commentary for quite a long time; what tends to throw us is familiarity!
- m463 18d ago
  I remember reading about star trek, and in particular uhura. "Uhura" comes from the Swahili word uhuru, meaning "freedom" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyota_Uhura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyota_Uhura On Star Trek, Nichols was one of the first Black women featured in a major television series. Her prominent supporting role as a bridge officer was unprecedented. She was once tempted to leave the series; however, a conversation with Martin Luther King Jr. changed her mind. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichelle_Nichols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichelle_Nichols
- bigstrat2003 18d ago
  No, there's a massive difference. Taking Star Trek as an example: most of the time (not all the time, I am well aware), old Trek series were careful to present social commentary in a way that trusted the viewer to draw his own conclusions. The writers may have had an opinion, but they avoided obviously taking a side and tried to present reasonable points of view all around even if they did gently nudge things to make one side seem better. By letting the viewer come to a conclusion naturally, they actually had persuasive power because they didn't antagonize the audience. New Star Trek, on the other hand, has the writers openly preaching to you. They have one side of an issue represented by paragons of virtue, the other side represented by the scum of the earth, and have characters say what a bad person one must be if they come down on the wrong side of this. There is no subtlety whatsoever, and it has no persuasive power because the writers are more interested in flipping the bird to those whom they consider evil than actually trying to educate or persuade the audience. And while I'm speaking specifically of Trek, this happens a lot with modern sci-fi. There is so much bad, preachy writing out there. And while that may have always existed to some extent, it wasn't the norm. Now it is the norm and it sucks.
  - 18d ago
danaris 18d ago
Have you ever watched Star Trek? Either the Original Series or The Next Generation? Because apolitical they were not. Like, emphatically. Sometimes they were subtle, other times they were pretty heavy-handed. Sci-fi has never, ever, been apolitical.
- moate 18d ago
  Can someone give me examples of beloved, well written and respected sci-fi that was not overt political/social commentary to go along with all the discoloration of the above comment or is this just the standard "I like Rage Against the Machine because they're angry, but hate that they get political" nonsense? Frankenstein: Political AF. Asimov: So fucking political. Dick: It's nothing BUT politics. Anything in the cyberpunk genre: Why do you still need me to spell this out?
  - ChickeNES 18d ago
    Asimov had plenty of stories with little to no politics, did you just read Foundation and skip his other works? Some of them are basically logic puzzles. Sure, Frankenstein has social and political commentary, but that's not what people remember it for (to me it's more philosophy than social commentary, but YMMV). Dick is more famous for being weird than being political, but that's just my own experience and how I was introduced to him, so again, YMMV. I’d say cyberpunk is in a similar position. Sure, it’s political, but you can enjoy the story without really engaging with the politics, and tbh, something like Snow Crash is so aggressively satirical and over-the-top that calling it a straightforward political statement feels like missing half the joke. As for current stuff? The Martian has some politics w/ NASA and the cooperation with China, but it's certainly not what the book is about. And I think you're not engaging with the actual complaint: poor, overly preachy writing is a terrible way to communicate a political point, much less persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
    - danaris 18d ago
      And the response to that complaint is: So you're not actually complaining about politics in sci-fi. You're complaining about bad writing in sci-fi.
moate 18d ago
As someone with "Don't Panic" tattoo'd on my left forearm, and as I pointed out in another comment: Adams' Magnum Opus is in no avoiding its messaging, the politics/author's opinion is extremely clear. Can you give an example of the old, subtle (that's the word you were looking for, it's a subtle reference/theme) sci-fi show that was a "story with a disguised message" instead of the current "message with a disguised story"? I'm just trying to level set here.
- thinkingemote 18d ago
  Adams is a good example of a story with a message. A message with a story is more like today's TV sci-fi. The way the message is being told has changed because the message is incredibly important.
  - moate 18d ago
    If you didn’t actually want to give examples you can just say “no”. As someone else pointed out: you’re complaining that some media is poorly written and other media is well written. There are past and current examples of overtly opinionated shows that people love and message-less media that nobody cared about.
Arainach 18d ago
Sci-fi has always been political. Star Trek exists because Gene Roddenberry's military drama was cut for making political statements[0], so he moved the political statements to be in space in the future. [0] https://collider.com/gene-roddenberry-the-lieutenant-series/ https://collider.com/gene-roddenberry-the-lieutenant-series/
- moate 17d ago
  Don't forget the Twilight Zone. The whole show existed because Serling wanted to make political statements and felt sci-fi might give him enough cover to make them. It's almost like...that's the point of the genre, to give enough of a fig leaf that the reactionaries will be lulled into allowing it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone
ajuc 17d ago
Sci-fi was political from the start, usually far more political than people realize. It's just that the way it was political back then agrees with your biases so you don't see it as being political :)
account42 17d ago
Somewhat ironically, putting the message before eveything else also ensures that it mostly only reaches those who already agree with the message. Similar to how a "100% with us or you will be cancelled" mentalility to discourse only serves to strengthen the opposition.

calvinmorrison 18d ago

nobody ever got hurt listening to mewithoutyou

moate 18d ago
speak for yourself, I have def been bopping along to The King Beetle and tripped over something at some point :D

wisty 18d ago

Nah, politics in shows is great. It's like CGI. It can really make a show pop if it's well thought out, subtle, and feels realistic. People complain about it when it seems to be used as an excuse for a lack other aspects of the show, or it makes everything seem unrealistic because they were more keen on putting it in than actually caring about whether it was realistic or at least made things feel realistic to the viewer. The OG Jurassic Park had lots of politics and lots of CGI. No-one complained about it, because it was well done. If they had a jerkily animated raptor judo flipping a t-rex for no other reason than the director thought it would be cool to include then people would be saying the CGI was awful.

TaLiTr 18d ago
> Nah, politics in shows is great. It's like CGI. It can really make a show pop if it's well thought out, subtle, and feels realistic. Is this a joke? To me both CGI and politics have the same issue which is aging poorly. Nobody thinks The Phantom Menace looks better than A New Hope.
- DonHopkins 18d ago
  Dick aged well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F5bMFSYPvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F5bMFSYPvE
- Arainach 18d ago
  Everything is political. If you think it's not, you're just benefiting from the status quo and blind to it. Even ignoring that history loves to repeat itself, plenty of politics in all forms of media has aged excellently, and plenty of politics that haven't aged well are still insightful into the period of the piece.
  - krige 18d ago
    There's a striking difference between telling and tone deaf preaching and when people complain about politics they always, without fail, mean the latter. The stance of "everything is political" itself is extremely tone deaf.
    - UpsideDownRide 18d ago
      It reads like you are using tone deaf as a substitute for 'somethign I dont like'
      - krige 18d ago
        Surely you can see that one follows the other.
  - norome 18d ago

graemep 18d ago

> It's like Christian rock music its usually not good though. If it was good they would not market it as Christian. Lots of bands have Christian lyrics without Christian marketing - U2 for example. I suppose that is the equivalent of the SF story with the disguised message.

Shog9 18d ago

Please go back and re-read some pulp scifi from, say, 70 years back and then spend some time scrolling through microfilm copies of newspapers from the same era. You will find that SciFi has been mostly social commentary for quite a long time; what tends to throw us is familiarity!

m463 18d ago
I remember reading about star trek, and in particular uhura. "Uhura" comes from the Swahili word uhuru, meaning "freedom" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyota_Uhura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyota_Uhura On Star Trek, Nichols was one of the first Black women featured in a major television series. Her prominent supporting role as a bridge officer was unprecedented. She was once tempted to leave the series; however, a conversation with Martin Luther King Jr. changed her mind. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichelle_Nichols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichelle_Nichols
bigstrat2003 18d ago
No, there's a massive difference. Taking Star Trek as an example: most of the time (not all the time, I am well aware), old Trek series were careful to present social commentary in a way that trusted the viewer to draw his own conclusions. The writers may have had an opinion, but they avoided obviously taking a side and tried to present reasonable points of view all around even if they did gently nudge things to make one side seem better. By letting the viewer come to a conclusion naturally, they actually had persuasive power because they didn't antagonize the audience. New Star Trek, on the other hand, has the writers openly preaching to you. They have one side of an issue represented by paragons of virtue, the other side represented by the scum of the earth, and have characters say what a bad person one must be if they come down on the wrong side of this. There is no subtlety whatsoever, and it has no persuasive power because the writers are more interested in flipping the bird to those whom they consider evil than actually trying to educate or persuade the audience. And while I'm speaking specifically of Trek, this happens a lot with modern sci-fi. There is so much bad, preachy writing out there. And while that may have always existed to some extent, it wasn't the norm. Now it is the norm and it sucks.
- 18d ago

danaris 18d ago

Have you ever watched Star Trek? Either the Original Series or The Next Generation? Because apolitical they were not. Like, emphatically. Sometimes they were subtle, other times they were pretty heavy-handed. Sci-fi has never, ever, been apolitical.

moate 18d ago
Can someone give me examples of beloved, well written and respected sci-fi that was not overt political/social commentary to go along with all the discoloration of the above comment or is this just the standard "I like Rage Against the Machine because they're angry, but hate that they get political" nonsense? Frankenstein: Political AF. Asimov: So fucking political. Dick: It's nothing BUT politics. Anything in the cyberpunk genre: Why do you still need me to spell this out?
- ChickeNES 18d ago
  Asimov had plenty of stories with little to no politics, did you just read Foundation and skip his other works? Some of them are basically logic puzzles. Sure, Frankenstein has social and political commentary, but that's not what people remember it for (to me it's more philosophy than social commentary, but YMMV). Dick is more famous for being weird than being political, but that's just my own experience and how I was introduced to him, so again, YMMV. I’d say cyberpunk is in a similar position. Sure, it’s political, but you can enjoy the story without really engaging with the politics, and tbh, something like Snow Crash is so aggressively satirical and over-the-top that calling it a straightforward political statement feels like missing half the joke. As for current stuff? The Martian has some politics w/ NASA and the cooperation with China, but it's certainly not what the book is about. And I think you're not engaging with the actual complaint: poor, overly preachy writing is a terrible way to communicate a political point, much less persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
  - danaris 18d ago
    And the response to that complaint is: So you're not actually complaining about politics in sci-fi. You're complaining about bad writing in sci-fi.

moate 18d ago

As someone with "Don't Panic" tattoo'd on my left forearm, and as I pointed out in another comment: Adams' Magnum Opus is in no avoiding its messaging, the politics/author's opinion is extremely clear. Can you give an example of the old, subtle (that's the word you were looking for, it's a subtle reference/theme) sci-fi show that was a "story with a disguised message" instead of the current "message with a disguised story"? I'm just trying to level set here.

thinkingemote 18d ago
Adams is a good example of a story with a message. A message with a story is more like today's TV sci-fi. The way the message is being told has changed because the message is incredibly important.
- moate 18d ago
  If you didn’t actually want to give examples you can just say “no”. As someone else pointed out: you’re complaining that some media is poorly written and other media is well written. There are past and current examples of overtly opinionated shows that people love and message-less media that nobody cared about.

Arainach 18d ago

Sci-fi has always been political. Star Trek exists because Gene Roddenberry's military drama was cut for making political statements[0], so he moved the political statements to be in space in the future. [0] https://collider.com/gene-roddenberry-the-lieutenant-series/ https://collider.com/gene-roddenberry-the-lieutenant-series/

moate 17d ago
Don't forget the Twilight Zone. The whole show existed because Serling wanted to make political statements and felt sci-fi might give him enough cover to make them. It's almost like...that's the point of the genre, to give enough of a fig leaf that the reactionaries will be lulled into allowing it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone

ajuc 17d ago

Sci-fi was political from the start, usually far more political than people realize. It's just that the way it was political back then agrees with your biases so you don't see it as being political :)

account42 17d ago

Somewhat ironically, putting the message before eveything else also ensures that it mostly only reaches those who already agree with the message. Similar to how a "100% with us or you will be cancelled" mentalility to discourse only serves to strengthen the opposition.