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Precise wording aside, the essential content of the back-and-forth here is: > When should one use Java on projects? > One shouldn't consider Java because it l

Precise wording aside, the essential content of the back-and-forth here is: > When should one use Java on projects? > One shouldn't consider Java because it lets you use null. > That's easily solvable by just not using null. > But you can't just do that. People will use it. > You can just do that. Tell them not to. Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls?" If someone is asked what technology to use for a project in the first place, they are almost certainly also asked about how it will be used. The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" but "are you a decision maker," and when the original question is "when should one decide to do X," you have to accept as a premise that you are placing yourself in the role of a decision maker in the first place.

saghm 16d ago
> Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). I'm not seeing how you can seriously claim that the amount of unsafe used in Rust over the past 11 years is anywhere close to the amount of null used in Java for the past three decades. The vast majority of Rust projects don't have any unsafe used directly in them. I have trouble believing that the fraction of Java projects that don't ever touch null is anywhere close to as high. > In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls? You keep framing questions as something people only ever ask if they happen to have the power to make decisions, and that still makes no sense to me. > The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" That's almost the exact question I responded to initially! You responded to me responding to the question "Why don't you have any coding standards?". I feel like you're trying to argue against me as if I commented several levels above in the thread than I actually did, and then getting confused by me not accepting that premise.
- ndriscoll 16d ago
  The question was about greenfield projects, not all projects in existence. In a greenfield project, you can set your own standards, be judicious about what libraries you use, etc. I'm not framing it as a question one only asks if they happen to have the power to actually decide to use it; obviously a curious student might want to know why large successful companies continue to use the JVM even for new projects. I'm saying that the answer can be given from the perspective of someone who does have that power, and that the question is really "if I can choose a language, why would I choose Java." That doesn't imply that the person asking actually has that power, but it prevents silly answers that are addressed by "don't do that."

saghm 16d ago

> Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). I'm not seeing how you can seriously claim that the amount of unsafe used in Rust over the past 11 years is anywhere close to the amount of null used in Java for the past three decades. The vast majority of Rust projects don't have any unsafe used directly in them. I have trouble believing that the fraction of Java projects that don't ever touch null is anywhere close to as high. > In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls? You keep framing questions as something people only ever ask if they happen to have the power to make decisions, and that still makes no sense to me. > The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" That's almost the exact question I responded to initially! You responded to me responding to the question "Why don't you have any coding standards?". I feel like you're trying to argue against me as if I commented several levels above in the thread than I actually did, and then getting confused by me not accepting that premise.

ndriscoll 16d ago
The question was about greenfield projects, not all projects in existence. In a greenfield project, you can set your own standards, be judicious about what libraries you use, etc. I'm not framing it as a question one only asks if they happen to have the power to actually decide to use it; obviously a curious student might want to know why large successful companies continue to use the JVM even for new projects. I'm saying that the answer can be given from the perspective of someone who does have that power, and that the question is really "if I can choose a language, why would I choose Java." That doesn't imply that the person asking actually has that power, but it prevents silly answers that are addressed by "don't do that."