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It's so funny seeing most of the comments, plus the original article, implying that roundabouts are always better or always worse than traffic signals. As someo

It's so funny seeing most of the comments, plus the original article, implying that roundabouts are always better or always worse than traffic signals. As someone who used to be a Transportation Engineering professor, they have a time and place where they outperform traffic signals but it's definitely not everywhere. It is known and there are many traffic simulation software tools that will give you a pretty good indication of what will happen if you put a roundabout here or a traffic signal there. This thread reminds me of when my libertarian friend was explaining to me how traffic shows how everything can work well when everyone acts in their own self interest. Well, sure, except for all the traffic laws, the difference between User and System Optimal that traffic engineers spend much of their lives trying to bridge, and, you know, the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere. Sigh. I'm not saying Transportation Engineering is the most important, innovative field, but funny things happen when not transportation engineers talk about transportation systems.

pkamb 17d ago
A major reappraisal is currently happening in the entire industry, which for too long has been focused solely on the throughput of single-occupancy vehicles. Roundabouts offer many advantages over traffic signals, even the ones that "outperform" them. It's probably a good thing that we've stopped listening only to transportation engineers focused on moving cars as quickly and efficiently as possible.
ds_opseeker 17d ago
> my libertarian friend was explaining to me how traffic shows how everything can work well when everyone acts in their own self interest. Well, sure, except for all the traffic laws, the difference between User and System Optimal that traffic engineers spend much of their lives trying to bridge, and, you know, the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere. Love this. Likewise "free markets" which work great when embedded in a system of laws and regulations. Or more critically, in a high-trust system where people keep their word because that's what matters. But not sure how many people are in favor of the more unregulated black markets, where contracts are enforced by rule of violence instead of rule of law. As if we've forgotten Hobbes, and the horrors he lived through which informed his philosophy.
ImTotallyVegan 16d ago
> the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere "Traffic" here is an analogy for "society at large", so any response along the lines of "but the government built the roads" or "but public transport is more efficient" is kind of missing the point. And it's a good analogy in that it shows how much order can emerge from people acting in their self interest without being aware of other peoples plans or goals. I also think it makes it pretty intuitive that predictable and general rules of the game are far superior to ad hoc and ever changing ones, although as an argument in favor of laissez faire, it's definitely not a good one.

pkamb 17d ago

A major reappraisal is currently happening in the entire industry, which for too long has been focused solely on the throughput of single-occupancy vehicles. Roundabouts offer many advantages over traffic signals, even the ones that "outperform" them. It's probably a good thing that we've stopped listening only to transportation engineers focused on moving cars as quickly and efficiently as possible.

ds_opseeker 17d ago

> my libertarian friend was explaining to me how traffic shows how everything can work well when everyone acts in their own self interest. Well, sure, except for all the traffic laws, the difference between User and System Optimal that traffic engineers spend much of their lives trying to bridge, and, you know, the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere. Love this. Likewise "free markets" which work great when embedded in a system of laws and regulations. Or more critically, in a high-trust system where people keep their word because that's what matters. But not sure how many people are in favor of the more unregulated black markets, where contracts are enforced by rule of violence instead of rule of law. As if we've forgotten Hobbes, and the horrors he lived through which informed his philosophy.

ImTotallyVegan 16d ago

> the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere "Traffic" here is an analogy for "society at large", so any response along the lines of "but the government built the roads" or "but public transport is more efficient" is kind of missing the point. And it's a good analogy in that it shows how much order can emerge from people acting in their self interest without being aware of other peoples plans or goals. I also think it makes it pretty intuitive that predictable and general rules of the game are far superior to ad hoc and ever changing ones, although as an argument in favor of laissez faire, it's definitely not a good one.