3 ms·

They guaranteed 11 9's durability, didn't they? e: Yep https://aws.amazon.com/s3/storage-classes/ https://aws.amazon.com/s3/storage-classes/

deleted 10d ago
[deleted]
jonahx 10d ago
I don't think this has any teeth. They don't compensate in the event of loss afaict.
rbanffy 10d ago
Considering all the data they have globally, they might still be compliant.
stackskipton 10d ago
Even if they have payable SLA on this, most SLAs have Acts of God and Acts of War exemption.
- lbreakjai 10d ago
  But do they have Act of Special Operation exemptions?
  - eastbound 9d ago
    I'm going to reword my Terms of Service this second to add "any military operation" next to "acts of war". But I'm sure we'll then have to demonstrate whether paramilitary are assimilated to the military.
    - MisterMunchkin 9d ago
      I was just reading an insurance policy and it said "any war, including undeclared wars" The insurers always know how to weasel out of it.
- Y-bar 9d ago
  > US refuses payout for soldiers who died in Iran 'because it isn't a war' > In response to another question, Mr Vance rejected using the word “war” to characterise US operations in Iran, saying there was “no active shooting”. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49596955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49596955
advisedwang 10d ago
They say it's "designed for" 11 9s, not guaranteed.
- the8472 10d ago
  But if they want to design for extreme probabilities you need to account for tail risks, so their design should have included a missile defense system. At some point you need to start worrying about asteroid defense too.
  - JCharante 9d ago
    Ah so that's why we need a lunar base. To uphold S3's 11 9s of availability
beejiu 10d ago
The SLA excludes force majeure.
- LastTrain 10d ago
  This
- the8472 10d ago
  Making a probabilistic claim while excluding a factor that dominates those statistics is... is quite creative accounting.
  - mpyne 10d ago
    Are you saying that most data loss happens because your data center gets blown up in a shooting war? Like, AWS is the first digital service provider to lose data in decades?
    - the8472 10d ago
      I'm saying that if you have eliminated more mundane failures like dying harddrives, cosmic rays and so on from your systems and your calculation ends up with 11 nines then actually those "force majeure" events are probable enough that they dominate whatever other residuals are supposedly hiding in those last 0.0000000001%. The region has seen a bunch of wars in the last 100 years, so the annual war-rate is > 1%. Even if we generously add the assumption that only 1 in 100 wars affects a datacenter you can see that wars become a major source of correlated hardware failures that they need to solve to actually deliver that kind of reliability.
      - mpyne 10d ago
        Cosmic rays and dying hard drives are not force majeure though.
      - ployable7 9d ago
        You don’t want to blend probabilities like this, because the tactics you use as a consumer vary between the two. If you consider 11 9s like “object AFR”, you might build systems that are resilient to very occasional single object loss. And it’s useful to know at what rate that might occur. Whereas with these force majeure events you’d want a complete DR setup, and it’s typically an async recovery. Here it is useful to understand the fault domain (single server or single building or multi-building) so you can plan. Blending the two numbers doesn’t help you build better against the systems. And the force majeure events are rare enough that they won’t happen … until they do. I’m not sure that knowing the precise probability that Iran would attack a gulf nation would change the fact that if they do, you need to have a DR story.
jameshart 10d ago
The footnote which says that is the design durability against equipment failure literally begins: > In the unlikely case of the loss or damage to all or part of an AWS Availability Zone, data in a One Zone storage class may be lost. For example, events like fire and water damage could result in data loss
deleted 10d ago
[deleted]
shepherdjerred 9d ago
It seems unreasonable to blame Amazon here. The AZ was destroyed. Are they supposed to have missile/drone defense? I'm not going to complain to DoorDash if my order is delayed due to a car crash
- Edman274 9d ago
  If a senior leader at Doordash swore to God that your sandwich would 100% guaranteed make it to you, regardless of whether or not there was a car crash, then yeah, maybe you should complain
  - shepherdjerred 9d ago
    Yeah I agree with you. If they made a specific promise to some unlikely case out of their control, then I would expect compensation. Did Amazon make such a promise? They didn't as far as I know. My understanding is they provide specific guarantees like given an AZ outage, your data is still safe (provided you architect correctly).
  - earth-tattoo 9d ago
    Correct analogy would be: they promised to make 3 copies of my sandwich, from 3 different restaurants, and deliver them by 3 different cars, taking different routes, in case one of them gets in a crash. But in this case all 3 restaurants were bombed by Iran!
- jLaForest 9d ago
  Wild berries has missle defence now, why not Amazon?
kmeisthax 9d ago
Hot take: if you have a service that is 11 nines reliable, but there is an underlying component whose reliability is lower, cap the nines to that component.
ciberado 9d ago
If they haven't changed it recently, 11 nines is the durability target by design, but it is not set in any SLA. the S3 SLA is focused on availability.

deleted 10d ago

[deleted]

jonahx 10d ago

I don't think this has any teeth. They don't compensate in the event of loss afaict.

rbanffy 10d ago

Considering all the data they have globally, they might still be compliant.

stackskipton 10d ago

Even if they have payable SLA on this, most SLAs have Acts of God and Acts of War exemption.

lbreakjai 10d ago
But do they have Act of Special Operation exemptions?
- eastbound 9d ago
  I'm going to reword my Terms of Service this second to add "any military operation" next to "acts of war". But I'm sure we'll then have to demonstrate whether paramilitary are assimilated to the military.
  - MisterMunchkin 9d ago
    I was just reading an insurance policy and it said "any war, including undeclared wars" The insurers always know how to weasel out of it.
Y-bar 9d ago
> US refuses payout for soldiers who died in Iran 'because it isn't a war' > In response to another question, Mr Vance rejected using the word “war” to characterise US operations in Iran, saying there was “no active shooting”. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49596955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49596955

advisedwang 10d ago

They say it's "designed for" 11 9s, not guaranteed.

the8472 10d ago
But if they want to design for extreme probabilities you need to account for tail risks, so their design should have included a missile defense system. At some point you need to start worrying about asteroid defense too.
- JCharante 9d ago
  Ah so that's why we need a lunar base. To uphold S3's 11 9s of availability

beejiu 10d ago

The SLA excludes force majeure.

LastTrain 10d ago
This
the8472 10d ago
Making a probabilistic claim while excluding a factor that dominates those statistics is... is quite creative accounting.
- mpyne 10d ago
  Are you saying that most data loss happens because your data center gets blown up in a shooting war? Like, AWS is the first digital service provider to lose data in decades?
  - the8472 10d ago
    I'm saying that if you have eliminated more mundane failures like dying harddrives, cosmic rays and so on from your systems and your calculation ends up with 11 nines then actually those "force majeure" events are probable enough that they dominate whatever other residuals are supposedly hiding in those last 0.0000000001%. The region has seen a bunch of wars in the last 100 years, so the annual war-rate is > 1%. Even if we generously add the assumption that only 1 in 100 wars affects a datacenter you can see that wars become a major source of correlated hardware failures that they need to solve to actually deliver that kind of reliability.
    - mpyne 10d ago
      Cosmic rays and dying hard drives are not force majeure though.
    - ployable7 9d ago
      You don’t want to blend probabilities like this, because the tactics you use as a consumer vary between the two. If you consider 11 9s like “object AFR”, you might build systems that are resilient to very occasional single object loss. And it’s useful to know at what rate that might occur. Whereas with these force majeure events you’d want a complete DR setup, and it’s typically an async recovery. Here it is useful to understand the fault domain (single server or single building or multi-building) so you can plan. Blending the two numbers doesn’t help you build better against the systems. And the force majeure events are rare enough that they won’t happen … until they do. I’m not sure that knowing the precise probability that Iran would attack a gulf nation would change the fact that if they do, you need to have a DR story.

jameshart 10d ago

The footnote which says that is the design durability against equipment failure literally begins: > In the unlikely case of the loss or damage to all or part of an AWS Availability Zone, data in a One Zone storage class may be lost. For example, events like fire and water damage could result in data loss

deleted 10d ago

[deleted]

shepherdjerred 9d ago

It seems unreasonable to blame Amazon here. The AZ was destroyed. Are they supposed to have missile/drone defense? I'm not going to complain to DoorDash if my order is delayed due to a car crash

Edman274 9d ago
If a senior leader at Doordash swore to God that your sandwich would 100% guaranteed make it to you, regardless of whether or not there was a car crash, then yeah, maybe you should complain
- shepherdjerred 9d ago
  Yeah I agree with you. If they made a specific promise to some unlikely case out of their control, then I would expect compensation. Did Amazon make such a promise? They didn't as far as I know. My understanding is they provide specific guarantees like given an AZ outage, your data is still safe (provided you architect correctly).
- earth-tattoo 9d ago
  Correct analogy would be: they promised to make 3 copies of my sandwich, from 3 different restaurants, and deliver them by 3 different cars, taking different routes, in case one of them gets in a crash. But in this case all 3 restaurants were bombed by Iran!
jLaForest 9d ago
Wild berries has missle defence now, why not Amazon?

kmeisthax 9d ago

Hot take: if you have a service that is 11 nines reliable, but there is an underlying component whose reliability is lower, cap the nines to that component.

ciberado 9d ago

If they haven't changed it recently, 11 nines is the durability target by design, but it is not set in any SLA. the S3 SLA is focused on availability.