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If someone's asking "why Java" or is saying nulls make it a hard no, then you'd assume that they have a choice in the first place, which generally means they al

If someone's asking "why Java" or is saying nulls make it a hard no, then you'd assume that they have a choice in the first place, which generally means they also have some ability to set coding standards at the same time that they're choosing a language. Scala technically allows you to use nulls or throw exceptions pretty much wherever (necessary for Java compatibility), but it's not an issue because people simply don't outside of super niche situations (generally some low-level thing, or a shim). Similar to `unsafe` in Rust. Or casts in all sorts of languages.

saghm 20d ago
> If someone's asking "why Java" or is saying nulls make it a hard no, then you'd assume that they have a choice in the first place, which generally means they also have some ability to set coding standards at the same time that they're choosing a language. I don't understand that logic. I sometimes ask people to explain why they think a certain policy should be implemented by the government after they state their support for it, but I don't have the ability to set government policy. I have trouble imagining you genuinely assume that any time someone asks you why something should be the way you say that you think they have the ability to change it if you convince them.
- ndriscoll 20d ago
  Of course you assume that; if you're talking about what a policy should be, then you work in a hypothetical world where the policy can be chosen. You don't say "but what about some other minor detail! That would require an additional policy choice, and we can't change related policies." Like if I think my business should open an hour earlier, and you say "but the employees won't be there yet so who will open the doors!" obviously the solution is to also change the work schedule. When you have closely related policies, generally the same person/people are empowered to make both changes.
  - saghm 19d ago
    Yes, a hypothetical world, not necessarily the real one. The first comment you responded to from me was me responding to someone who said "Why don't you have any coding standards?". It sounds like the answer to it that you're proposing is "I do, but they're just all hypothetical", which I guess isn't technically wrong but it's entirely irrelevant to the real-world circumstances that you still haven't addressed in any way from what I can tell.
    - ndriscoll 19d ago
      Precise wording aside, the essential content of the back-and-forth here is: > When should one use Java on projects? > One shouldn't consider Java because it lets you use null. > That's easily solvable by just not using null. > But you can't just do that. People will use it. > You can just do that. Tell them not to. Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls?" If someone is asked what technology to use for a project in the first place, they are almost certainly also asked about how it will be used. The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" but "are you a decision maker," and when the original question is "when should one decide to do X," you have to accept as a premise that you are placing yourself in the role of a decision maker in the first place.
      - saghm 18d ago
        > Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). I'm not seeing how you can seriously claim that the amount of unsafe used in Rust over the past 11 years is anywhere close to the amount of null used in Java for the past three decades. The vast majority of Rust projects don't have any unsafe used directly in them. I have trouble believing that the fraction of Java projects that don't ever touch null is anywhere close to as high. > In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls? You keep framing questions as something people only ever ask if they happen to have the power to make decisions, and that still makes no sense to me. > The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" That's almost the exact question I responded to initially! You responded to me responding to the question "Why don't you have any coding standards?". I feel like you're trying to argue against me as if I commented several levels above in the thread than I actually did, and then getting confused by me not accepting that premise.
gf000 18d ago
Just for reference, Scala actually has proper null safety. You can turn it on with a compiler flag and then use union types to denote nullable types, like String | Null

saghm 20d ago

> If someone's asking "why Java" or is saying nulls make it a hard no, then you'd assume that they have a choice in the first place, which generally means they also have some ability to set coding standards at the same time that they're choosing a language. I don't understand that logic. I sometimes ask people to explain why they think a certain policy should be implemented by the government after they state their support for it, but I don't have the ability to set government policy. I have trouble imagining you genuinely assume that any time someone asks you why something should be the way you say that you think they have the ability to change it if you convince them.

ndriscoll 20d ago
Of course you assume that; if you're talking about what a policy should be, then you work in a hypothetical world where the policy can be chosen. You don't say "but what about some other minor detail! That would require an additional policy choice, and we can't change related policies." Like if I think my business should open an hour earlier, and you say "but the employees won't be there yet so who will open the doors!" obviously the solution is to also change the work schedule. When you have closely related policies, generally the same person/people are empowered to make both changes.
- saghm 19d ago
  Yes, a hypothetical world, not necessarily the real one. The first comment you responded to from me was me responding to someone who said "Why don't you have any coding standards?". It sounds like the answer to it that you're proposing is "I do, but they're just all hypothetical", which I guess isn't technically wrong but it's entirely irrelevant to the real-world circumstances that you still haven't addressed in any way from what I can tell.
  - ndriscoll 19d ago
    Precise wording aside, the essential content of the back-and-forth here is: > When should one use Java on projects? > One shouldn't consider Java because it lets you use null. > That's easily solvable by just not using null. > But you can't just do that. People will use it. > You can just do that. Tell them not to. Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls?" If someone is asked what technology to use for a project in the first place, they are almost certainly also asked about how it will be used. The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" but "are you a decision maker," and when the original question is "when should one decide to do X," you have to accept as a premise that you are placing yourself in the role of a decision maker in the first place.
    - saghm 18d ago
      > Like I'm not seeing the issue. This is like saying you can't use Rust because people will use `unsafe` because it lets them do C programmer things, and then claiming it is simply impossible to tell them not to do that (and set tool policies to flag anyone attempting to). I'm not seeing how you can seriously claim that the amount of unsafe used in Rust over the past 11 years is anywhere close to the amount of null used in Java for the past three decades. The vast majority of Rust projects don't have any unsafe used directly in them. I have trouble believing that the fraction of Java projects that don't ever touch null is anywhere close to as high. > In the real world, if you're in a position to even ask "why use Java for a new project?" then you are presumably also in a position to have "don't use nulls" be a satisfying answer to "what about nulls? You keep framing questions as something people only ever ask if they happen to have the power to make decisions, and that still makes no sense to me. > The hypothetical here is not "do you have coding standards" That's almost the exact question I responded to initially! You responded to me responding to the question "Why don't you have any coding standards?". I feel like you're trying to argue against me as if I commented several levels above in the thread than I actually did, and then getting confused by me not accepting that premise.

gf000 18d ago

Just for reference, Scala actually has proper null safety. You can turn it on with a compiler flag and then use union types to denote nullable types, like String | Null