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> If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. I

by MiloLeo 17d ago

> If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. I wonder what this would look like. I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends.

fodkodrasz 17d ago
> I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends. like out-of-control global warming, depletion of freshwater reserves, destruction of soil, mass surveillance, extremely uneven distribution of resources. I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, basically keeping the production-consumption machinery takes up all the surplus it produces, while depleting the resources we have. The great achievements we have are much like the Moai statues on the Easter Island.
- WalterBright 17d ago
  > I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, The bone evidence of pre-Columbian Indians in America is one of periodic starvation. For the colonists, the bone evidence is one of extremely hard labor and short lives. America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.
  - tempfile 16d ago
    You could enslave someone and yet give them a greater standard of living than a medieval king. That would not mean that it is acceptable, or even better.
    - bluGill 16d ago
      I suspect most of them would find being my slave better. By modern standards it would not be acceptable or better, but all evidence I've seen suggest most people in medieval days would consider then loss of freedom not that big of a deal (partially this is about how little freedom many of them had)
tempfile 16d ago
> I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment Woah, really? More than cheap fuel, scientific research, social welfare, political work towards peace? The only good thing I can think of that is actually directly caused by the way we employ people is that some things (delivery, food) are very cheap, cheaper than they would be if people worked at a sustainable rate. But that comes at the immense cost of the health and wellbeing of a vast underclass of people.

by MiloLeo 17d ago

fodkodrasz 17d ago

> I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends. like out-of-control global warming, depletion of freshwater reserves, destruction of soil, mass surveillance, extremely uneven distribution of resources. I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, basically keeping the production-consumption machinery takes up all the surplus it produces, while depleting the resources we have. The great achievements we have are much like the Moai statues on the Easter Island.

WalterBright 17d ago
> I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, The bone evidence of pre-Columbian Indians in America is one of periodic starvation. For the colonists, the bone evidence is one of extremely hard labor and short lives. America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.
- tempfile 16d ago
  You could enslave someone and yet give them a greater standard of living than a medieval king. That would not mean that it is acceptable, or even better.
  - bluGill 16d ago
    I suspect most of them would find being my slave better. By modern standards it would not be acceptable or better, but all evidence I've seen suggest most people in medieval days would consider then loss of freedom not that big of a deal (partially this is about how little freedom many of them had)

tempfile 16d ago

> I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment Woah, really? More than cheap fuel, scientific research, social welfare, political work towards peace? The only good thing I can think of that is actually directly caused by the way we employ people is that some things (delivery, food) are very cheap, cheaper than they would be if people worked at a sustainable rate. But that comes at the immense cost of the health and wellbeing of a vast underclass of people.