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I've heard a lot of arguments against human space exploration, but "We could put that energy into working less" is probably one of the more out-there arguments

I've heard a lot of arguments against human space exploration, but "We could put that energy into working less" is probably one of the more out-there arguments that's hard to take seriously.

tempfile 11d ago
Work is a necessary evil. If it is not necessary, then it is just a regular evil. There are no credible arguments that going to the moon is necessary, or supports some other necessary goal. Of course by work, I mean work directed by somebody else to serve their ends, in exchange for money to live your own life. If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. If you decide you want or need to do some kind of voluntary work to keep your mental health intact, so much the better. And if those happy people want to voluntarily commit some of their energy to going to the moon for no reason, then good for them. I really cannot imagine taking your position. Working less is the pretty much the only thing we should be putting energy into.
- MiloLeo 11d ago
  > If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. I wonder what this would look like. I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends.
  - fodkodrasz 11d ago
    > I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends. like out-of-control global warming, depletion of freshwater reserves, destruction of soil, mass surveillance, extremely uneven distribution of resources. I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, basically keeping the production-consumption machinery takes up all the surplus it produces, while depleting the resources we have. The great achievements we have are much like the Moai statues on the Easter Island.
    - WalterBright 11d ago
      > I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, The bone evidence of pre-Columbian Indians in America is one of periodic starvation. For the colonists, the bone evidence is one of extremely hard labor and short lives. America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.
      - tempfile 10d ago
        You could enslave someone and yet give them a greater standard of living than a medieval king. That would not mean that it is acceptable, or even better.
        bluGill 10d ago
        I suspect most of them would find being my slave better. By modern standards it would not be acceptable or better, but all evidence I've seen suggest most people in medieval days would consider then loss of freedom not that big of a deal (partially this is about how little freedom many of them had)
  - tempfile 10d ago
    > I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment Woah, really? More than cheap fuel, scientific research, social welfare, political work towards peace? The only good thing I can think of that is actually directly caused by the way we employ people is that some things (delivery, food) are very cheap, cheaper than they would be if people worked at a sustainable rate. But that comes at the immense cost of the health and wellbeing of a vast underclass of people.
- classified 11d ago
  > There are no credible arguments that going to the moon is necessary, or supports some other necessary goal. “the superfluous is highly necessary” – Voltaire
  - tempfile 10d ago
    Being forced to do superfluous things is not.
    - classified 10d ago
      Is someone forcing you to fly to the moon?
      - bluGill 10d ago
        They want to force me to pay to fly somebody else to the moon.
        deleted 8d ago
        [deleted]
- Exoristos 11d ago
  Work is a good.
  - tempfile 10d ago
    Why is involuntary work a good?
    - bluGill 10d ago
      Nobody is talking about slavery here. You need to do something to feed yourself, otherwise you are making somebody else a slave to feed you. As a society there are some very disabled people we can accept this for, but when someone isn't supporting themselves that is enslaving someone else.
      - tempfile 10d ago
        Not sure this reply makes much sense. I said that if we (humans) become more productive, i.e. that we can produce sufficient food/water/shelter/whatever with less effort, then the first goal after that should be to reduce the amount of drudgery the average person has to put up with, rather than (say) keeping the amount of drudgery the same and spaffing a bunch of fuel into space. I'm not sure where in that you see someone being enslaved to feed me. Incidentally, we tolerate this kind of "slavery" just fine when we charge people rent for basic shelter. The cost of maintaining the asset (the house) is far less than the cost we actually charge people, so in your sense when I pay rent I am being enslaved by the landlord to support their lifestyle. Finally, you brought up slavery. The guy I'm replying to just said "work is good". I don't think it's good that we make people destroy their bodies in amazon fulfilment centers. People know what's good for them, if they want to do work let them do the work they want. But to say "no, you have to do the work I want you to do" under the hypothesis that we have plenty of stuff to go around (and we absolutely do) is just sick.
- WalterBright 11d ago
  > Work is a necessary evil. I get fulfillment via work. > Working less is the pretty much the only thing we should be putting energy into. A life without purpose leads to sloth and early death.
  - bluGill 11d ago
    > I get fulfillment via work. Good for you. And I hope you never get laid off, burned out, or anything else. I however do not get my fulfillment via work. I work to live, and I do [mostly] enjoy my work. However I have a very long todo list that I'm not getting done in part because I don't have the time to work on it (and in part because I don't have the money for the tools/parts I need)
  - tempfile 10d ago
    > I get fulfillment via work. Did you read the part where I said voluntary work is fine? > A life without purpose leads to sloth and early death. Almost no work provides the people doing it with a sense of purpose. People have a purpose in spite of work, not because of it.

I've heard a lot of arguments against human space exploration, but "We could put that energy into working less" is probably one of the more out-there arguments that's hard to take seriously.

tempfile 11d ago

Work is a necessary evil. If it is not necessary, then it is just a regular evil. There are no credible arguments that going to the moon is necessary, or supports some other necessary goal. Of course by work, I mean work directed by somebody else to serve their ends, in exchange for money to live your own life. If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. If you decide you want or need to do some kind of voluntary work to keep your mental health intact, so much the better. And if those happy people want to voluntarily commit some of their energy to going to the moon for no reason, then good for them. I really cannot imagine taking your position. Working less is the pretty much the only thing we should be putting energy into.

MiloLeo 11d ago
> If we could afford to have people work five hours a week and still maintain a functioning society, then surely it is a moral obligation for us to do that. I wonder what this would look like. I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends.
- fodkodrasz 11d ago
  > I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment or at being forced to do something at the behest of someone elses ends. like out-of-control global warming, depletion of freshwater reserves, destruction of soil, mass surveillance, extremely uneven distribution of resources. I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, basically keeping the production-consumption machinery takes up all the surplus it produces, while depleting the resources we have. The great achievements we have are much like the Moai statues on the Easter Island.
  - WalterBright 11d ago
    > I mean all previous innovations which were supposed to allow working less somehow never materialized in working less, and the quality of life improvements are greatly questionable, The bone evidence of pre-Columbian Indians in America is one of periodic starvation. For the colonists, the bone evidence is one of extremely hard labor and short lives. America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.
    - tempfile 10d ago
      You could enslave someone and yet give them a greater standard of living than a medieval king. That would not mean that it is acceptable, or even better.
      - bluGill 10d ago
        I suspect most of them would find being my slave better. By modern standards it would not be acceptable or better, but all evidence I've seen suggest most people in medieval days would consider then loss of freedom not that big of a deal (partially this is about how little freedom many of them had)
- tempfile 10d ago
  > I feel like nearly all of mankinds greatest achievements are due to our current structure of employment Woah, really? More than cheap fuel, scientific research, social welfare, political work towards peace? The only good thing I can think of that is actually directly caused by the way we employ people is that some things (delivery, food) are very cheap, cheaper than they would be if people worked at a sustainable rate. But that comes at the immense cost of the health and wellbeing of a vast underclass of people.
classified 11d ago
> There are no credible arguments that going to the moon is necessary, or supports some other necessary goal. “the superfluous is highly necessary” – Voltaire
- tempfile 10d ago
  Being forced to do superfluous things is not.
  - classified 10d ago
    Is someone forcing you to fly to the moon?
    - bluGill 10d ago
      They want to force me to pay to fly somebody else to the moon.
      - deleted 8d ago
        [deleted]
Exoristos 11d ago
Work is a good.
- tempfile 10d ago
  Why is involuntary work a good?
  - bluGill 10d ago
    Nobody is talking about slavery here. You need to do something to feed yourself, otherwise you are making somebody else a slave to feed you. As a society there are some very disabled people we can accept this for, but when someone isn't supporting themselves that is enslaving someone else.
    - tempfile 10d ago
      Not sure this reply makes much sense. I said that if we (humans) become more productive, i.e. that we can produce sufficient food/water/shelter/whatever with less effort, then the first goal after that should be to reduce the amount of drudgery the average person has to put up with, rather than (say) keeping the amount of drudgery the same and spaffing a bunch of fuel into space. I'm not sure where in that you see someone being enslaved to feed me. Incidentally, we tolerate this kind of "slavery" just fine when we charge people rent for basic shelter. The cost of maintaining the asset (the house) is far less than the cost we actually charge people, so in your sense when I pay rent I am being enslaved by the landlord to support their lifestyle. Finally, you brought up slavery. The guy I'm replying to just said "work is good". I don't think it's good that we make people destroy their bodies in amazon fulfilment centers. People know what's good for them, if they want to do work let them do the work they want. But to say "no, you have to do the work I want you to do" under the hypothesis that we have plenty of stuff to go around (and we absolutely do) is just sick.
WalterBright 11d ago
> Work is a necessary evil. I get fulfillment via work. > Working less is the pretty much the only thing we should be putting energy into. A life without purpose leads to sloth and early death.
- bluGill 11d ago
  > I get fulfillment via work. Good for you. And I hope you never get laid off, burned out, or anything else. I however do not get my fulfillment via work. I work to live, and I do [mostly] enjoy my work. However I have a very long todo list that I'm not getting done in part because I don't have the time to work on it (and in part because I don't have the money for the tools/parts I need)
- tempfile 10d ago
  > I get fulfillment via work. Did you read the part where I said voluntary work is fine? > A life without purpose leads to sloth and early death. Almost no work provides the people doing it with a sense of purpose. People have a purpose in spite of work, not because of it.