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Most intra-species fighting is not designed to end in murder, so this seems like a pretty bold claim. Got any research to back it up?

hermitcrab 20d ago
>Most intra-species fighting is not designed to end in murder That depends a lot on scarcity. If you are a male and you only get one chance at mating, you will probably fight to the death. If you will get plenty of other chances, then you might accept the results of a ritualised non-lethal combat (e.g. giraffes headbutting each other, rather than kicking). Its just evolution + game theory.
- amunozo 20d ago
  Is this backed by some anthropological real world examples, or are you just extrapolating theories?
  - hermitcrab 20d ago
    I read it in an article that was talking about the application of game theory to biology/evolution and I believe it is well supported by evidence. But I can't remember the source.
  - hermitcrab 20d ago
    [dead]
- HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
  What animal species often offers males only one chance of mating ?! It's common among animal species for males to fight over females, but it's highly uncommon for them to fight to the death, because that is not evolutionary adaptive - it risks the individual as well as the genetic diversity of the group/species (and evolution is selecting for survival of the species, not the individual).
  - hilariously 20d ago
    obligate male death happens, but usually in things like spiders after mating, so there's a few examples for you
    - HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
      Fighting to the death and mating are not the same! There are a number of species where the female eats the male after mating - examples such as praying mantis and octopus. Both octopus males and females die after mating, the female after having protected the eggs, so it makes sense that she sometimes eats the male too (who is going to die anyway). But, examples like this are relatively rare, and for species specific reasons.
      - lightedman 20d ago
        "What animal species often offers males only one chance of mating ?!" "Fighting to the death and mating are not the same!" Your original question and your current statement are in confliction. Pick one.
        HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
        > If you are a male and you only get one chance at mating, you will probably fight to the death This is the comment I was responding to. The question was about pre-mating death matches between males, not post-mating snacking behavior of females.
  - articulatepang 20d ago
    > evolution is selecting for survival of the species, not the individual This is very wrong. Evolution is selecting for the total reproductive fitness of genes, and to a slightly lesser extent, individuals. There’s no mechanism that helps the process of evolution select for the survival or reproduction of the species. See any recent textbook on evolutionary biology, or read Dawkins, or even Darwin. I don’t know where you got this idea but it’s exactly wrong.
stronglikedan 20d ago
Yes, in the documentary The Walking Dead, when Rick's team attacked Negan's team while they were sleeping.
cm2012 20d ago
Intra-species dominance is very different from group raiding. Chimps team up to slaughter other chimps all the time. Raid style warfare was the norm for humans
- vintermann 20d ago
  Sure, you can go in to kill everyone, and sometimes they did, but only when they were OK with almost as many of their own group dying as the enemy. There's no big technological or tactical advantage to be had in the stone age. Maybe, if you're really lucky, only one of you die for every two of theirs? (Attacking them in their beds, pah, don't you think maybe the neighboring tribe thought about that and had someone on watch?)
  - cm2012 20d ago
    Attack in beds was very common. Sneak in canoes, kill as many as you can before the enemy regroups, canoe away as the sun comes up.
    - glint 20d ago
      "The Cutting-Off Way: Indigenous Warfare in Eastern North America, 1500-1800" by Wayne Lee is a good read that describes a similar kind of warfare. It doesn't necessarily prove (nor does it set out to prove) that all non-industrial warfare followed this model but it does provide decent evidence for population-limited societies generally preferring deadly ambush to pitched battle.
    - vintermann 20d ago
      When running away is a big part of the tactic, it's not a "kill everyone" tactic. You don't have the advantage for long. And even if you did succeed, the next tribe over could just as easily do the same to you (and they probably would, seeing what you're like), so there's a strong reason to develop norms, rules of engagement limiting this sort of thing.
      - 19d ago

hermitcrab 20d ago

>Most intra-species fighting is not designed to end in murder That depends a lot on scarcity. If you are a male and you only get one chance at mating, you will probably fight to the death. If you will get plenty of other chances, then you might accept the results of a ritualised non-lethal combat (e.g. giraffes headbutting each other, rather than kicking). Its just evolution + game theory.

amunozo 20d ago
Is this backed by some anthropological real world examples, or are you just extrapolating theories?
- hermitcrab 20d ago
  I read it in an article that was talking about the application of game theory to biology/evolution and I believe it is well supported by evidence. But I can't remember the source.
- hermitcrab 20d ago
  [dead]
HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
What animal species often offers males only one chance of mating ?! It's common among animal species for males to fight over females, but it's highly uncommon for them to fight to the death, because that is not evolutionary adaptive - it risks the individual as well as the genetic diversity of the group/species (and evolution is selecting for survival of the species, not the individual).
- hilariously 20d ago
  obligate male death happens, but usually in things like spiders after mating, so there's a few examples for you
  - HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
    Fighting to the death and mating are not the same! There are a number of species where the female eats the male after mating - examples such as praying mantis and octopus. Both octopus males and females die after mating, the female after having protected the eggs, so it makes sense that she sometimes eats the male too (who is going to die anyway). But, examples like this are relatively rare, and for species specific reasons.
    - lightedman 20d ago
      "What animal species often offers males only one chance of mating ?!" "Fighting to the death and mating are not the same!" Your original question and your current statement are in confliction. Pick one.
      - HarHarVeryFunny 20d ago
        > If you are a male and you only get one chance at mating, you will probably fight to the death This is the comment I was responding to. The question was about pre-mating death matches between males, not post-mating snacking behavior of females.
- articulatepang 20d ago
  > evolution is selecting for survival of the species, not the individual This is very wrong. Evolution is selecting for the total reproductive fitness of genes, and to a slightly lesser extent, individuals. There’s no mechanism that helps the process of evolution select for the survival or reproduction of the species. See any recent textbook on evolutionary biology, or read Dawkins, or even Darwin. I don’t know where you got this idea but it’s exactly wrong.

stronglikedan 20d ago

Yes, in the documentary The Walking Dead, when Rick's team attacked Negan's team while they were sleeping.

cm2012 20d ago

Intra-species dominance is very different from group raiding. Chimps team up to slaughter other chimps all the time. Raid style warfare was the norm for humans

vintermann 20d ago
Sure, you can go in to kill everyone, and sometimes they did, but only when they were OK with almost as many of their own group dying as the enemy. There's no big technological or tactical advantage to be had in the stone age. Maybe, if you're really lucky, only one of you die for every two of theirs? (Attacking them in their beds, pah, don't you think maybe the neighboring tribe thought about that and had someone on watch?)
- cm2012 20d ago
  Attack in beds was very common. Sneak in canoes, kill as many as you can before the enemy regroups, canoe away as the sun comes up.
  - glint 20d ago
    "The Cutting-Off Way: Indigenous Warfare in Eastern North America, 1500-1800" by Wayne Lee is a good read that describes a similar kind of warfare. It doesn't necessarily prove (nor does it set out to prove) that all non-industrial warfare followed this model but it does provide decent evidence for population-limited societies generally preferring deadly ambush to pitched battle.
  - vintermann 20d ago
    When running away is a big part of the tactic, it's not a "kill everyone" tactic. You don't have the advantage for long. And even if you did succeed, the next tribe over could just as easily do the same to you (and they probably would, seeing what you're like), so there's a strong reason to develop norms, rules of engagement limiting this sort of thing.
    - 19d ago