> Well, the default in avifenc can always be changed. Sure, that was kind of my point, but I think it's important to point out it's the default. I had read som

> Well, the default in avifenc can always be changed. Sure, that was kind of my point, but I think it's important to point out it's the default. I had read somewhere else in the comments that they just "happened" to use 2 passes (that I now realized was also written by you), that I interpreted as them maybe making a bad decision in the comparison page, but I think it's very reasonable to use the default. I also usually prefer to use the default unless I have a good reason not to do so. And I think that `--layered` is fine as a name, and I had realized that as the docs were right below the docs for `--progressive`, which do mention it encodes a "layered image", although it could use an example on how to use it effectively. > I'm surprised HN likes progressive loading to be more granular, and use that to push back. Not necessarily? Using more passes would probably help in specific the metric in the comment I was responding to, by making AVIF possibly look better on a larger fraction of the decoding time. I mostly interpreted your comment as saying that it would have been better if they used more passes, and that's on me. The reason I was comparing the breakpoints in the decode time was because I was responding to an allegation that "even there, AVIF looks better for 90% of the decode time", and I decided to point out that's not not the case and chose some pretty clear breakpoints that are very hard to argue about. Very subjectively the actual breakpoints could be a lot earlier, for the Poke the AVIF only looks better (in the sense that you can figure out what's there better) in a 6% range (from 2 to 8%) or maybe 9% (from 2% to 11%) of the decode time. There are many (relatively big) seeds that are just not there on the AVIF side, but you can distinguish on the JXL side, even if they're blurry. Percentages used in reference to the JXL side. > I'm wondering if there are generational differences at play? Maybe it's the difference of being used to the blurhash vs. old-school JPEG loading experience. Hmmm I don't know, maybe. TBF with today's usual internet speeds progressive loading isn't as important as it was as more steps make less sense if you have a good connection. > Well, focusing on the "Poke bowl" example: with AVIF you can clearly tell apart each ingredient at 8kB. You can derive enough semantic understanding just from this base layer. Having decent edge preservation helps significantly here. Sure, I see what you mean, you can distinguish more image element in the AVIF example, that's true. I don't like the lack of consistency and some of the artifacts to the point where I'd prefer not using progressive encoding, so that's not what I'd call "usable", but that seems like a matter of taste. It surely does look closer to a "final image" than the JXL at that point. As a note, I think what I'd prefer would be 2 passes, with the 1st pass being around how JXL looks at around 11% / 39 kB. You can get a rough idea of what's the image about and the elements on it, with roughly the right colors, but it's still clearly loading, so there's no confusion, and without many "artifacts" like the progressive AVIF in the example (no idea if AVIF is able to make progressive encoding in a way that's more "blurry"). The caveat is that more steps are better when it takes too long (more than a few seconds) so the user knows it's not stuck.