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Social status and being well-liked are different things, and sometimes you have to choose one at the expense of the other. It's not a comfortable feeling, but i

Social status and being well-liked are different things, and sometimes you have to choose one at the expense of the other. It's not a comfortable feeling, but it's the truth. Being accommodating lowers your social status but makes you well-liked. The end result of this is that people waste your time because they get away with treating it as having less value than theirs. But the default mode of most people is insecurity so, when the chips are down, they go with the high-status guy (the rival druggist who was not accommodating but prospered). Respect, not popularity, is key. I spent many years of my life doing obnoxious, ridiculous things on the basis that it was better to be hated than ignored. I was completely wrong. Being hated or disliked is undesirable, if you can help it. Being ignored is fine. Being liked but not respected turns you into one of those whiny "but I'm such a nice guy" types, so it's the worst of all outcomes. Being liked and respected is what you want, but to get that, you have to accept the fact that some people will ignore or dislike you. The reason it is better, in most cases, to be ignored than disliked is that it takes less effort. The same goes with being liked but not respected-- lots of effort. You should expend effort only for people who respect you. That's a chance to show true loyalty, not subservience. Subordinate people can never be really loyal, because power relationships always evolve and, when they do, their colors will change. So you only gain anything by doing someone a favor if you're already from a position of equality.

m0nty 14y ago
I have always found that helping people does not make you more popular: they just start treating you like their bitch, and get angry when they ask yet another favour and you eventually say "no". Also, they will not reciprocate - why should they waste time helping their bitch, when the bitch is supposed to help them? As soon as you act like a subordinate, you become one, at least in their eyes. People often mistake my role as tech support, which means anything from changing toner cartridges to setting up their presentation equipment. They often just turn up in my office with another "emergency" and I'm supposed to drop everything and run off to help them. I have learned to issue a flat "no" when this happens unless they let me know well in advance that I will be needed. They are often furious but I'm thick-skinned enough not to care: at least I have some control over the situation if I play it this way. My boss supports me so that helps. "You should expend effort only for people who respect you" is something I've learned the hard way and it really does work. I keep pushing back until they learn that (even if I annoy them) my time is not worthless, and if they treat it as such I will not help them. Actually, I usually end up feeling quite good about this way of working.
- zimbatm 14y ago
  Tech is a bit special because you also mix in the insecurity feeling that some people have towards that "black magic". I know a lot of people who just become frustrated and aggressive when things don't work as they expected. When I was working in a computer shop one of my trick was to clearly state what was going to happen or to lay down the options that they had. That would often help them feel in control and calm down. Obviously before I had to wait for them to calm down enough to be able to listen.
  - m0nty 14y ago
    Yes, they are insecure. One of my pet hates is when they go on about how I'm a "genius" or a "miracle worker" when mostly I do basic stuff they could do themselves. It's both an excuse for them not to do it, and a way to flatter me into doing it for them. Except I don't flatter that well, and I'm not really tech support in the first place. I keep reminding myself that these are otherwise highly intelligent people who have insecurities about technology. Part of the "pushing back" is about encouraging them to do it themselves. A trick I learned from a one-time co-worker was to listen attentively and repeat the words "I understand" and "yes, I understand" until they calm down and I can say something more meaningful. Keep reassuring them you're listening and their problem is valid. Works like a charm.
  - SatvikBeri 14y ago
    Helping people feel like they're in control is a really valuable skill! Feeling like you're in control and can affect the things around you is a major part of happiness. Even if you're giving "fake" options ("I can do this but it'll cost you a million dollars") the other party will feel much happier if they feel they had a choice, as opposed to having the choice be made for them.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  I haven't found that - I've found helping people makes you quite popular, which gives you resources to do cool things, which makes you even more popular. There's a threshold effect, though. The key is to help everyone, such that basically everything you do is for someone else. Word spreads around that you're someone who gets things done and makes problems go away, which makes even more people come to you with their problems. Eventually, you get to the point where you can say honestly "I'm sorry, I don't have time to help you because I have to help so-and-so first." When that happens, your niceness and your social status rise: you're viewed as a nice person because you're always helping people, and you're viewed as a powerful person because you don't have time to help them. Keep this up and a curious thing happens: the requests for aid diminish because everyone assumes you'll just be too busy, and yet when you do help someone out, they're super-appreciative. This gives you both time and resources to accomplish your own goals, and people are happy to help you out both because you've done favors for them in the past and because their own social status rises by being involved in your projects.
Tichy 14y ago
Are status rules really so simple? Can it not also sometimes raise status to be accommodating, because it shows you can afford it? Of course it would all depend on the circumstances... I struggle with that on the sidewalk. I tend to move out of the way to let people pass, because it seems more elegant to me, and often I am fitter than the approaching person. Should I really be bulldozing onwards just to assert my status? What about the gift economy, where the people giving the most gifts has the highest status (examples: open source, science, feasts in archaic societies).
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  Are status rules really so simple? No. You can study this for years and still be mystified. I don't think anyone has figured all of it out. Can it not also sometimes raise status to be accommodating, because it shows you can afford it? Generosity is different from being accommodating. You have to have a mission and purpose and not let it slide for trivialities. Generosity means you help people out, but on your terms. You do things for them because it is genuinely good for them. Accommodating means you drop your own needs and wants to do their chores. Doing someone else's low-yield work does not (in general) make you attractive. Of course, there are exceptions. Should I really be bulldozing onwards just to assert my status? No. That would be an extremely low-status move. "Asserting" high status by being a dick means you don't have it. What about the gift economy, where the people giving the most gifts has the highest status (examples: open source, science, feasts in archaic societies) Again, that's generosity.
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  There's an important difference between granting a favor and granting a request. Compare: -Bob buys Ed a copy of Boating Skills and Seamanship because he knows Ed likes boats -Ed asks Bob to buy him a copy of Boating Skills and Seamanship and Bob obliges In case 1, Bob is taking a high-status action without lowering Ed's status. In case 2, Ed is taking a high-status action but lowering Bob's status.
  - wallflower 14y ago
    Status games are very interesting. Some of the best people at manipulating status are kiosk sellers. "As he was rising from obscurity in Philadelphia and wanted the approval of some important man, Franklin would often maneuver that man into doing Franklin some unimportant favor, like lending Franklin a book. Thereafter, the man would admire and trust Franklin more because a nonadmired and nontrusted Franklin would be inconsistent with the appraisal implicit in lending Franklin the book." http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/the-psychology.html http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/the-psychology.html
guelo 14y ago
> I spent many years of my life doing obnoxious, ridiculous things Oh. To me that explains a lot about your public Google drama.
SatvikBeri 14y ago
The Charisma Myth is a very good book on charisma that goes into this in detail. The author, Olivia Fox Cabane, claims there are essentially three types of charisma: 1. Power 2. Presence 3. Warmth Power translates to respect, warmth translates to being liked, and presence translates to making people feel that you are "there" when you talk to them. These 3 types of charisma are orthogonal. That's why you can find powerful jackasses, wimpy "nice guys", or people who are both powerful and well-liked.
- InternetUser 14y ago
  Just to be clear - by orthogonal, do you mean mutually exclusive? Is there some visual diagram by which you could illustrate the point? I suppose that since there are 3 components to 'total' power, that such a diagram would be a circle divided into 3 sections or something? I can only imagine a grid with 4 quadrants, but don't know how the quadrants would be labeled, but I'm definitely interested in the concept. How would the diagram be best constructed?
  - SatvikBeri 14y ago
    By orthogonal I mean that you can have any combination of the 3. They're essentially unrelated. You could think of it as a vector (power, presence, warmth.) As a very hypothetical example, Steve Jobs might be (10, 10, 5) while Mother Teresa would be closer to (5, 5, 10). As a visualization, you could think of this as a cube, with the directions representing power, presence, and warmth. One corner would be (0,0,0) and the opposite would be (10,10,10).
    - philwelch 14y ago
      "Orthogonal" literally means "perpendicular", so your cube analogy is exactly the correct metaphor.
      - bcbrown 14y ago
        Pedantically, "orthogonal" is an extrapolation of "perpendicular" from two dimensions to an arbitrary number of dimensions.

m0nty 14y ago

I have always found that helping people does not make you more popular: they just start treating you like their bitch, and get angry when they ask yet another favour and you eventually say "no". Also, they will not reciprocate - why should they waste time helping their bitch, when the bitch is supposed to help them? As soon as you act like a subordinate, you become one, at least in their eyes. People often mistake my role as tech support, which means anything from changing toner cartridges to setting up their presentation equipment. They often just turn up in my office with another "emergency" and I'm supposed to drop everything and run off to help them. I have learned to issue a flat "no" when this happens unless they let me know well in advance that I will be needed. They are often furious but I'm thick-skinned enough not to care: at least I have some control over the situation if I play it this way. My boss supports me so that helps. "You should expend effort only for people who respect you" is something I've learned the hard way and it really does work. I keep pushing back until they learn that (even if I annoy them) my time is not worthless, and if they treat it as such I will not help them. Actually, I usually end up feeling quite good about this way of working.

zimbatm 14y ago
Tech is a bit special because you also mix in the insecurity feeling that some people have towards that "black magic". I know a lot of people who just become frustrated and aggressive when things don't work as they expected. When I was working in a computer shop one of my trick was to clearly state what was going to happen or to lay down the options that they had. That would often help them feel in control and calm down. Obviously before I had to wait for them to calm down enough to be able to listen.
- m0nty 14y ago
  Yes, they are insecure. One of my pet hates is when they go on about how I'm a "genius" or a "miracle worker" when mostly I do basic stuff they could do themselves. It's both an excuse for them not to do it, and a way to flatter me into doing it for them. Except I don't flatter that well, and I'm not really tech support in the first place. I keep reminding myself that these are otherwise highly intelligent people who have insecurities about technology. Part of the "pushing back" is about encouraging them to do it themselves. A trick I learned from a one-time co-worker was to listen attentively and repeat the words "I understand" and "yes, I understand" until they calm down and I can say something more meaningful. Keep reassuring them you're listening and their problem is valid. Works like a charm.
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  Helping people feel like they're in control is a really valuable skill! Feeling like you're in control and can affect the things around you is a major part of happiness. Even if you're giving "fake" options ("I can do this but it'll cost you a million dollars") the other party will feel much happier if they feel they had a choice, as opposed to having the choice be made for them.
nostrademons 14y ago
I haven't found that - I've found helping people makes you quite popular, which gives you resources to do cool things, which makes you even more popular. There's a threshold effect, though. The key is to help everyone, such that basically everything you do is for someone else. Word spreads around that you're someone who gets things done and makes problems go away, which makes even more people come to you with their problems. Eventually, you get to the point where you can say honestly "I'm sorry, I don't have time to help you because I have to help so-and-so first." When that happens, your niceness and your social status rise: you're viewed as a nice person because you're always helping people, and you're viewed as a powerful person because you don't have time to help them. Keep this up and a curious thing happens: the requests for aid diminish because everyone assumes you'll just be too busy, and yet when you do help someone out, they're super-appreciative. This gives you both time and resources to accomplish your own goals, and people are happy to help you out both because you've done favors for them in the past and because their own social status rises by being involved in your projects.

Tichy 14y ago

Are status rules really so simple? Can it not also sometimes raise status to be accommodating, because it shows you can afford it? Of course it would all depend on the circumstances... I struggle with that on the sidewalk. I tend to move out of the way to let people pass, because it seems more elegant to me, and often I am fitter than the approaching person. Should I really be bulldozing onwards just to assert my status? What about the gift economy, where the people giving the most gifts has the highest status (examples: open source, science, feasts in archaic societies).

michaelochurch 14y ago
Are status rules really so simple? No. You can study this for years and still be mystified. I don't think anyone has figured all of it out. Can it not also sometimes raise status to be accommodating, because it shows you can afford it? Generosity is different from being accommodating. You have to have a mission and purpose and not let it slide for trivialities. Generosity means you help people out, but on your terms. You do things for them because it is genuinely good for them. Accommodating means you drop your own needs and wants to do their chores. Doing someone else's low-yield work does not (in general) make you attractive. Of course, there are exceptions. Should I really be bulldozing onwards just to assert my status? No. That would be an extremely low-status move. "Asserting" high status by being a dick means you don't have it. What about the gift economy, where the people giving the most gifts has the highest status (examples: open source, science, feasts in archaic societies) Again, that's generosity.
SatvikBeri 14y ago
There's an important difference between granting a favor and granting a request. Compare: -Bob buys Ed a copy of Boating Skills and Seamanship because he knows Ed likes boats -Ed asks Bob to buy him a copy of Boating Skills and Seamanship and Bob obliges In case 1, Bob is taking a high-status action without lowering Ed's status. In case 2, Ed is taking a high-status action but lowering Bob's status.
- wallflower 14y ago
  Status games are very interesting. Some of the best people at manipulating status are kiosk sellers. "As he was rising from obscurity in Philadelphia and wanted the approval of some important man, Franklin would often maneuver that man into doing Franklin some unimportant favor, like lending Franklin a book. Thereafter, the man would admire and trust Franklin more because a nonadmired and nontrusted Franklin would be inconsistent with the appraisal implicit in lending Franklin the book." http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/the-psychology.html http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/the-psychology.html

guelo 14y ago

> I spent many years of my life doing obnoxious, ridiculous things Oh. To me that explains a lot about your public Google drama.

SatvikBeri 14y ago

The Charisma Myth is a very good book on charisma that goes into this in detail. The author, Olivia Fox Cabane, claims there are essentially three types of charisma: 1. Power 2. Presence 3. Warmth Power translates to respect, warmth translates to being liked, and presence translates to making people feel that you are "there" when you talk to them. These 3 types of charisma are orthogonal. That's why you can find powerful jackasses, wimpy "nice guys", or people who are both powerful and well-liked.

InternetUser 14y ago
Just to be clear - by orthogonal, do you mean mutually exclusive? Is there some visual diagram by which you could illustrate the point? I suppose that since there are 3 components to 'total' power, that such a diagram would be a circle divided into 3 sections or something? I can only imagine a grid with 4 quadrants, but don't know how the quadrants would be labeled, but I'm definitely interested in the concept. How would the diagram be best constructed?
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  By orthogonal I mean that you can have any combination of the 3. They're essentially unrelated. You could think of it as a vector (power, presence, warmth.) As a very hypothetical example, Steve Jobs might be (10, 10, 5) while Mother Teresa would be closer to (5, 5, 10). As a visualization, you could think of this as a cube, with the directions representing power, presence, and warmth. One corner would be (0,0,0) and the opposite would be (10,10,10).
  - philwelch 14y ago
    "Orthogonal" literally means "perpendicular", so your cube analogy is exactly the correct metaphor.
    - bcbrown 14y ago
      Pedantically, "orthogonal" is an extrapolation of "perpendicular" from two dimensions to an arbitrary number of dimensions.